HHR Playtesting needed

[Comassion]

Here's one for you playtesters to try over the weekend:

Try out the 2-hex in (instead of 5) setup rules, and give all AT guns the following SA:

Ambush Shot: After both players finish their movement phase, this unit may make a single defensive fire attack against any vehicle within range. It may not move in the assault phase if it does so.

Don't adjust their cost (for now). Come back and tell us how the battle went and what you think.

[Dagger]

Will do.

Dagger

[Domhnall101]

i think we need people to let us know the kind of tactics that result from this and if there is a way to break it.

[jiminy_fatal]

Do they still get a shot in the Assault phase as well???

[Comassion]

Yes. This SA does not affect their ability to shoot in the assault phase (however, as stated, they cannot move in the assault phase if they use this SA.)

[Dagger]

After Action Report

Maps: Dog 1 (lettering bottom right), Dog 2 (lettering top left), Able 1 (lettering bottom right).
Objective/Victory: Allied units must take control of at least 3 hexes in the southern hills of DOG1. Axis must prevent the Allied victory condition.
Special: All forest and towns considered hills. No roads.

Units:
German - Nashorn, PaK40 X2, PaK38, SS Haupsturmfurer, SS PanzerGrenadiers X2 = 100 pts.
UK - Cromwell IV, Valentine II, Crusader II, M3 Stuart X2, Humber Scout Car, Inspiring Lieutenant, SMLE No.4 Rifle = 100 pts.

Germans setup first on west side of DOG1 in the first two hex rows. Allies on east side of ABLE1 in the first two hex rows.

Vanguard! The Cromwell and the Crusader immediately move 4 hexes taking cover behind the hills on DOG2.

Turn 1
Initiative: Germans win and elect to move first.

Nashorn moves one hex east into more hills of DOG1 leaving one hill hex between itself and LOS for other vehicles as per it's SA.
SS units move one hex east toward the middle hills of DOG1. None of the PaKs move (obviously) but are going to attempt to make it to the hills for cover on the assault phase so they are not planning on using the Ambush SA.

UK movement: Cromwell moves west into the open ground between the middle hills of DOG1 and DOG 2. Only LOS is to the Northernmost PaK40. Crusader moves west around the hills of DOG2 staying out of LOS from all units except the aforementioned PaK40. One of the Stuarts moves west to within one hex of the southernmost hills of DOG2. The Humber and Valentine move west to within 11 hexes of the southernmost Pak40 even though there is no LOS between them. The remaining Stuart cuts acrossed the battlefield and ends it's movement behind the middle hills of DOG2. Both Infantry units tally-ho two hexes west.

PaK40 out in the open revises it's plan and takes an Ambush shot at the Cromwell scoring a disruption and damage counter.

End movement. Begin Assault phase.

German firing: PaK40 in the open takes another shot at the Cromwell killing it. No other PaK unit has LOS so they select to move. South Pak40 moves two hexes east behind the middle hills of DOG1. PaK38 moves up beside Nashorn in the hills. SS units move one hex east.

UK firing: Cromwell fires back at the north PaK40 destroying it. No other firing. Crusader and Stuart move past the destroyed Cromwell. The other Stuart moves directly behind the south hill of DOG1 out of all LOS. The Humber moves up behind the Stuart and the Valentine moves west two hexes, 1 hex behind the Humber also out of LOS of enemy units.

North PaK40 and Cromwell removed from the battlefield.

Turn 2
Initiative: UK wins initiative and elects to move first.

Infantry moves two hexes west into the middle hills of DOG2. Stuart and Humber cannot move past the PaK40 and 38 to get to the Nashorn without provoking defensive fire as the corridor is to narrow and would force adjacent hex movement. They both elect to move behind the middle hills of DOG1 one hex out but also out of LOS. The Valentine and the other Stuart follow suit, moving behind the east side of middle hills of DOG1, all units staying 1 hex back of the SS units approaching on the west side of the middle hills of DOG1.

German Movement: The SS units shift one hex south (or to their right) moving toward the south hills of DOG1. One of the Panzergrenadiers is now in the same hex as the PaK40. The Nashorn shifts back one hex west leaving one hill hex in it's front arc.

End movement. Begin Assault phase.

UK firing: No LOS between any units. With the SS units moving south the North Stuart and Humber move one hex south to the edge of the middle hills of DOG1. No other unit moves except the infantry moving 1 hex further west.

German firing: No firing. PaK40 relocates to the hill hex directly in front of the Nashorn. The SS units shift south one hex putting the SS Haupsturmfurer and one SS Panzergrenadier beside the south hills of DOG1. PaK38 doesn't move.

No counters to flip.

Turn 3
Initiative: Germans win and elect to move first.

SS Haupsturmfurer moves into the hill hex with the PaK40 and one SS Panzergrenadier moves into the hill hex with the PaK38. One SS Panzergrenadier in the open.

UK Movement: Break for commentary

At this point it looks like the "Ambush" SA is going to stymie the UK Advance. In order for the Allies to achieve the objective they have to rush the hills, leaving them exposed to "free" shots from the PaKs. The terrain features become superfluous at this point. Best results would be 2 of 5 Allied vehicles destroyed in the movement phase from the Paks, with a further 3 potentially being destroyed in the assault phase as the Nashorn gets to fire. Couple that with both SS Panzergrenadiers moving into any remaining Allied tank hex and the Allies are finished. So I played it out and it came out almost exactly as expected. 4 Allied vehicles destroyed. Only the Humber survived because it moved around the west edge of the south hills out of LOS of any unit. Although the Allied tanks did take out both Paks and 1 SS Panzergrenadier, this left just the Humber, the Inspiring LT and SMLE. In the next round, the Nashorn removes the Humber with ease and the Allies cannot remotely achieve the objective. This seemd very unbalanced given the units involved. It should have been a much closer battle. So I changed the wording of the Ambush SA to see what effect it would have.

Ambush Shot: During this units movement phase, it may make a single defensive fire attack against any vehicle within range. It may not move in the assault phase if it does so. It may still fire as normal in the assault phase

I then replayed the entire battle making the same intitiative wins and movements... almost. What changed was the effects of initiative. In the first phase, when the Germans had the initiative, the North PaK40 had no target (the Cromwell hadn't moved into range yet), so it elected to move closer to the hills. During the assault phase it was in range of the Cromwell and the disrupted and damaged counters were applied to the tank, but it was NOT destroyed. In turn, the Cromwell destroyed the PaK40 as before.

Everything else replayed exaclty the same, except the Cromwell, after removing the disrupted counter, moved closer to the battle.
End Commentary

[Dagger]

UK movement: As the Germans have already moved, the two remaining PaKs get no "free" shots. Charge! All Allied units converge on the two PaKs and the SS infantry. Infantry moves two hexes west, now only 5 hexes from the "exposed" SS Panzergrenadier.

End movement. Begin Assault phase.

German Firing: Nashorn obliterates the Crusader closing from the North. Both PaKs disrupt and damage each Stuart. The "exposed" SS Panzergrenadier moves into the same hex as the Valentine. The other SS Panzergrenadier moves into the hex of the Stuart damaged by the PaK38. The Haupsturmfurer moves directly behind the PaK38 and beside the PaK40.

UK Firing: The reincarnated Cromwell fires at the PaK38 destroying it. The Stuart damaged by the PaK38 fires at the PanzerGrenadier in it's hex, but misses. Using the "All guns blazing" SA it fires at the SS Panzergrenadier in the hex with the Valentine and scores a disruption. The Valentine attempts to distrupt the SS Panzergrenadier in the Stuarts hex but needing 5 success out of 5, it fails miserably. The Stuart damaged by the PaK40 returns fire and eliminates the PaK40. The Crusader in it's death throes fires one last time at the SS Panzergrenadier in the Valentines hex and almost succeeds, but not close enough. The infantry moves 1 hex closer to the bottom of the middle hills on DOG1, now in range of the SS Panzergrenadiers for next round.

Removal of the Crusader and both PaKs. Flip all damage and distrupts.

Turn 4
Initiative: UK wins and elects to move first.

Valentine most into the hex directly in front of the Nashorn. SS Panzergrenadier is disruped and get's no defensive fire. The Humber comes around and moves into the hex the Valentine vacated with the disrupted SS Panzergrenadier. Cromwell, even moving slowly, now moves up beside the Humber. Niether Stuart can move. The infantry move into the hill hex 4 away from the disrupted SS Panzergrenadier.

German Movement: Nashorn backs up a hex, placing a hill between itself and the Valentine. The SS Haupsturmfurer moves one hex forward to support the SS Panzergrenadiers. The SS Panzergrenadiers either can't move or elect not too.

End Movement. Begin Assault phase.

UK Firing: Cromwell fires at disruped SS PG and misses. Inspiring LT and SMLE also fire at disrupted SS PG and between them manage to kill it. The Stuart with the only remaining SS PG fires and misses. It then uses it's "All guns blazing" SA and fires at the Haupsturmfurer killing it. The Humber fires at the remaining SS PG but misses. Using it's "Strike and Fade" SA, it moves two hexes back to the Northwest. The Valentine with no shot at the Nashorn moves back one hex leaving two terrain hexes between it and the Nashorn.

German Firing: The only viable shot is the last SS PG. It close assaults the already damaged Stuart and finishes it off.

Remove units. SS Haupsturmfurer and 1 SS Panzergrenadier along with a Stuart.

Turn 5
Initiative: UK wins and forces the Germans to move first. The Nashorn makes a lateral move and tucks in behind the remaining SS PG who has moved back into the hills.

UK Movement: Val most directly in front of the Nashorn. The SS PG rolls a Close Assault defensive fire and disrupts the Valentine in it's hex. The Cromwell, remaining Stuart and Humber move to surround the SS PG. The Inspiring LT moves into the hex with the Cromwell and the SMLE moves in with the Stuart.

End Movement. Begin Assualt phase.

German Firing: Nashorn fires and turns the Valentine into a smoking ruin. SS PG attacks the Inspiring LT, killing it.

UK Firing: Valentine fires it's last shot at the Nashorn, disrupting it. The Humber scores enough successes to kill the SS PG but it makes it's cover roll. The Stuart fires and completely misses the SS PG. The SMLE fires at the SS PG but again it makes it's cover roll. But it's cover roll luck fails as the dying LT manages to finish off the SS PG.

Remove the Valentine and the last SS PG.

Turn 6
Initiative: UK wins. Germans can't move so all remaining Allied units converge on the Nashorn.

German Movement: None

End movement. Begin Assault phase.

UK Firing: That ghost of a Cromwell scores the killing blow on the Nashorn but dies when the *German Firing:* Nashorn returns the strike.

Remaining units on the battlefield. The Humber, a damaged Stuart and the SMLE. Enough to meet the victory condition, but just barely.

Played out much better this way. A lot closer.

As a test, I ran the same units on an open plain. No cover.

Axis smoked the Allies by the end of turn 3.

Conclusions: The change in the SA made a big difference. It made initiative important in the firing of the Artillery pieces. Had the initiative been different, the outcome would have been different, perhaps an Axis victory. Terrain also played a key role, allowing the Allied units to approach in a tactically sound manner. This was supported by the final test battle when the power of the SA really shone based on the complete lack of blocking terrain and the total destruction of the Allied force, leaving the Axis with all it's SS units, the PaK38 and a single remaining PaK40.

Between playing this out (twice) plus the 3rd battle and writing this report, it's now after 4 a.m. I'm going to bed :)

Dagger

[Ming]

Thanks for testing this out and writing it up, but it seems you were playing the rule incorrectly.


PaK40 out in the open revises it's plan and takes an Ambush shot at the Cromwell scoring a disruption and damage counter.

The SA is a defensive fire attack, and can only result in disruption. This probably would have had a profound impact on your tactical thinking!

[PatrickWR]

Yes. The Ambush Shot rule occurs exactly as a defensive fire attack, so the maximum effect is a face-up disruption counter.

[Dagger]

Ambush Shot: After both players finish their movement phase, this unit may make a single defensive fire attack against any vehicle within range. It may not move in the assault phase if it does so.

So your telling me I misinterpreted the ruling? Okay, I can accept that, but the wording needs to be clearer. Sucks after all that work but it wouldn't be hard to extrapolate the results. If the PaKs only get a defensive fire to vehicles that move in front of it from adjacent hex to adjacent hex or even at distance (still unclear on this), it still wouldn't have been a factor. The Cromwell simply wouldn't have had a damage counter. Results the same. The rest of the attacking vehicles wouldn't have gotten that close and in fact the one instance where the Humber and Stuart could have moved between the PaK40 and PaK38, they chose not to for exactly that reason. It would have triggered the Defensive fire, not in the way I interpreted but the results would have been the same.

What it would have changed is the 3rd game on open terrain. Using a double shot defeated the Allies well before they could close to effective ranges. With only a defensive fire, it would probably have gone to the Allies.

Dagger

[Dagger]

I'll try another unit combination tonight if I get the opportuinity. I'll post the results when I'm able. Hopefully gives a good comparrison of unit types. Cheers!

Dagger

[Comassion]

Thanks so much for your playtesting results.

I realize that the SA invoking defensive fire at range might be poorly worded - suggestions for improvement would be great.

The idea is that if a tank moves in front of an anti-tank gun, then the movement phase ends and the ATG gets a free defensive fire attack against the tank. The worst that can happen to the tank is that it recieves a face-up disrupted counter, just like a normal defensive fire attack. It doesn't even count as a hit for the turn, so it's unlikely that you'll kill the tank in a single round.

[Dagger]

No the wording isn't wrong. It can't be. My interpretation of it however was. If you look at the first long winded thread I put up, under Commentary, I changed the SA a bit, still maintaining what I thought was the original concept of the SA. Either way, the revised one worked extremely well considering.

Wording change from defensive fire to ambush fire (a new SA) would avoid any future confusion. Movement determines the firing timing (this to me is where it became very tactical, movement phase being critical to exposing or hiding yourself from the artillery). Made a huge difference in a terrain intensive map and one that was considerably less so (also a huge difference as it allowed units to move up close and "rush" the artillery on the first map, but the artillery decimated units in the open on the 3rd map).

Made all Artillery pieces extremely dangerous as they probably should be, even without the elusive "indirect fire" ;).

Dagger

[Dagger]

Do we need to retest this scenario? Not a problem if we do. If not, then is there another aspect that needs testing? Let us know. Cheers!

Dagger

[Comassion]

We have a different variant of the SA that should be tested: Give this SA to all AT guns (and use the 2-hex setup rule) and have at it.

First Fire: The first normal attack by this unit is made before any other unit in the assault phase, regardless of initiative. This special attack may be made only against Vehicle targets, and the effects are immediate (i.e., no return fire is permitted, and the vehicle is removed immediately if destroyed). This unit may fire normally during the ensuing assault phase.

The wording may not be entirely clear, but the intent is to allow an AT gun to fire a normal shot once per game (if it has not yet fired this game) before the Assault phase begins. Resolve the effects of that shot as a normal attack (flipping disruption and damage counters), and then proceed to the assault phase as normal.

[Dagger]

Okay, just to be clear, this is a "once per game" shot in the beginning of the assault phase (regardless of who won initiative) with results producting immediate face up counters, correct?

The reason I am curious about which phase is because if it's considered part of the assault phase, the AT could not fire and move ( I would assume) but it it's at the end of the movement phase it could. I need to be clear on this before I setup the test.

Good name would be "Snap Shot".

Dagger

[Comassion]

Consider it part of the assault phase - we'll clarify the wording, but AT guns should definitely not be able to move and shoot.

[Dagger]

I'll post the results when the testing is completed, hopefully tonight.

Dagger

[Dagger]

I'm a little slower at testing than I'd like but it is getting close to Christmas :) I'm about 1/4 thru the battle. I should be able to post the results late this evening or early tomorrow. I can tell you that so far the SA for Artillery is not a factor, but that's about to change on the next turn.

Dagger

[Comassion]

Dagger, thanks very much for your consistent efforts in playtesting.

All current playtesters: Please use the following SA on AT guns and the 2-hex in setup rules, and let us know how it goes.

First Shot: If this unit has not fired in this game, it may make one attack against a Vehicle at the end of the movement phase. The attack receives a +1 modifier to all attack dice, and the results are applied immediately. When using this ability, the unit may not act in the ensuing assault phase.

[Dagger]

After Action Report - "First Shot" - Part 1

Maps: Baker 2 (top left-lettering at bottom), Charlie 2 (top right - lettering at top), Able 2 (bottom left - lettering at bottom), Dog 1 (bottom right - lettering at top)

Russian Forces: T34/76 X2, T-70 X2, ZiS2 X2, PTRD-41
German Forces: SS Panzer IV, Panzer III X2, Panzer II "Flamingo", Brummbar, KAR98.

Objective: Germans must control at least 2 hexes of the town in Dog 1 by the end of turn 7.

Setup: Russians setup first 2 hexes in on Dog 1. Germans setup 2 hexes in on Baker 2.

Turn 1

Germans win initiative and elect to move first.

Pz II moves along the North road on Baker 1 to within 1 hex of the east edge.
Brummbar follows the same route but stops in the forest road junction.
Pz IV takes the South road initially but leaves the road to go acrossed country just to the west side of the south forest.
Pz III's both move along the South road and cover both sides of the bridge.
Kar 98 moves east on the South rd.

Russian Move:

All 4 tanks follow the road out of town with the two T70's in the lead. The lead T70 stops just to the North of the forest on the road with the other 3 tanks lined up behind him. The PTRD41 moves out

of town towards the forest. The Zis2's hold their positions at the North and South edge of town.

German Assault:
Pz II moves SE off road to the open terrain between the forest (Baker2) and hill (Charlie2)
The Brummbar and both Pz III's continue on the road.
Pz IV moves South 2 hexes.
Kar 98 moves east on South road

Pz IV has LOS to the Southern Zis2 but is out of range.

Russian Assault:
PTRD41 moves closer to forest.
Both T70's move to block the junction in the hill on Charlie 2 (2nd T70 behind junction)
Lead T34 moves into the forest junction on Dog 1.
2nd T34 attempts to move into the South forest hex and succeeds.

Turn 2

Russians win initiative and elect to move last.

German move:
Pz II cuts Southwest to the open road behind the forest on Able 2.
Brummbar only moves one hex forward using the hill for cover from the T34's
Both Pz III's go off road to the area between the forest and hill
Pz IV moves back to the Northwest but still within it's extended range from the southernmost T34.
Kar98 moves east.

Russian Move:
Both T70's move to the east side of the small hill on Charlie 2.
PTRD41 moves into forest.
T34 in forest junction doesn't move.
T34 in south forest moves south into the open (11 hexes from Pz IV) but within range of one of the Pz III's
Zis2's have no shot.

German Assault:
The Pz III in range of the T34 in the open decides to move behind the 2nd Pz III that is not in range.
The 2nd Pz III and Brummbar don't move or fire.
Pz II moves off road behind forest to the southwest.
Kar 98 moves east off road.
Pz IV moves east 1 hex.

Russian Assault:
PTRD41 moves into forest road junction
Southern T34 moves NorthNorthEast to open road just south of the forest.
Northern T34 moves 1 hex North on the road.
North T70 moves back into the hillroad junction on Charlie 2.
South T70 moves to the south, ending on the road just south of the T34.

Turn 3

Russians win and elect to move last.

German move:
Kar 98 moves east into forest.
Pz II moves behind forest onto the roadPz III's move south around the hill and both pop smoke which allowes the Brummbar, Pz IV and Pz II to move behind the smoke screen.

Russian move:
Southern T70 moves west stopping beside the forest on Able 2.
Southern T34 moves west beside the T70.
Northern T34 moves beside the 1st T34.
T70 moves into forestroad junction on Dog 1
PTRD41 moves back 1 into forest.

German Assault:
Kar 98 move Southeast into forest.
Pz II moves south behind forest on the road.
Brummbar has LOS to the T70 and T34 and elects to fire at the T70, disrupting it.
Pz IV fires at the T34 beside the T70 and scores enough hits to kill it outright.
Both Pz III's move out of the smoke and bracket the T70 in the forest road junction to the North and West.

Russian Assault:
The soon to be removed T34 fires back at the Pz IV scoring a damage against it.
2nd T34 cannot see the Brummbar due to the smoke so elects to fire at the closest Pz III. Manages to damage it.
The T70 out on the road fires at the damaged Pz III and turns it into a smoldering ruin.
The T70 in the forest junction fires at the as yet undamaged PzIII. The T70's gunner is on the mark and destroys it outright.

Remove smoke.
Casualties: Both Pz III's and a single T34.

[Dagger]

After Action Report - "First Shot" - Part 2

Turn 4

Russians win initiative and elect to move 1st.

Russian move:
Disrupted T70 can't move.
T70 in the forest junction moves back to the westernmost town hex on Dog 1.
T34 takes it's old position in the forest junction.
PTRD moves SouthEast.

German move:
Pz II moves east on road ending right beside the disrupted T70.
Pz IV, able to move while disrupted, moves east to confront the T34 in the forest junction.
Brummbar follows the Pz IV.
Kar 98 moves east into the clear.

AT SA!!! One of the Zis2's is in range and has LOS to the Pz II. Fires and scores an immediate disruption.

Russian Assault:
T34 fires at the Brummbar but fails to penetrate the massive front armor.
T70 fires at the disrupted Pz II but is only able to damage it.
PTRD is in range of the Pz II and takes a shot but misses.

German Assault:
Pz IV fires at the T34 but misses completely.
Brummbar only has one target and fires at the T34. Close but no hits.
Pz II fires at the T70 in front of it. Scores enough to destroy it.
Kar 98 moves into the hills.

Casualties: T70

Turn 5

Russians win initiative and move first.

Russian move:
T70 in town moves 1 hes North, staying within town limits.
T34 moves back and takes it's former spot in the westermost town hex.
PTRD moves east.

German move:
Pz IV moves 1 hex east on to the road.
Brummbar moves 2 hexes south to the road hex behind the Pz IV.
Pz II cannot move.

Russian Assault:
Zis2 fires at the Pz II, killing it.
PTRD moves into town with the Northernmost Zis2
Tanks do not move.

German Assault:
Kar 98 moves into the next hill to the east.
Brummbar moves around the North side of the forest staying out of LOS.
Pz IV doesn't move.

Turn 6

Russians win and elect to move first but none of the Russian units actually move.

German move:
Brummbar moves around to the east winding up adjacent to the Northern Zis2.
Pz IV moves directly in front of the T34 and interestingly out of LOS from the T70 and Southernmost Zis2.

AT SA!!! Northern Zis2 fires at the Brummbar and scores an immediate disruption.

Russian Assault:
T34 fires at the Pz IV and puts it out of it's misery.
T70 moves west out of town using the road and winds up on the road just north of the forest looking at the Brummbar's weaker rear armor.
PTRD moves into the T70 former position and is accompanied by the Southernmost Zis2.

German Assault:
Pz IV fires at the T34 but only disrupts it.
Brummbar fires at the Zis 2 in front of it but only manages to disrupt it as well.
Kar 98 moves Southeast out of the hills.

Casualties: Pz IV.

At this point the Germans cannot possibly achieve the objective and I ended the scenario.

Conclusions:
Other than the Russians almost constantly winning initiative and a few lucky rolls for both sides but more specifically because of the cautious approach of the German forces the Zis2's played a huge

delaying factor into the scenario. Coupled with the use of the SA, it made a large difference in the outcome of the battle. The immediate disruptions allowed the Russian units being attacked to survive

for a second devestating round against the German forces. The SA works well in this case.

I replayed the entire scenario using a Blitzkrieg style of tactic with the German forces. In that case, I was able to split the defenders and bring the Brummbar up to the edge of town. It was still close,

but the Germans overwhelmed the Russians with only the Brummbar and Kar98 surviving. Gave the Germans a turn 5 win. In this case, the SA of the artillery didn't factor in with the rapid closure of the

German forces, which is probably also fairly historically accurate.

Overall in my opinion the newly worded SA works well.

Dagger

[Comassion]

Glad to hear it, thanks very much for your playtesting.

[Dagger]

Okay, out for the holidays. I'll be checking in once in a while to see if any testing is needed. If the HHR Committee needs modified units checked or a specific setup or anything really...

Merry Christmas to all!

Dagger