HHR Veteran M4 Sherman "Rhino"

[Comassion]

Ah, the panic. The dreaded Rhino armies. The controversy. And we can blame it all on field mods and troop experience levels.

Veteran M4 Sherman "Rhino" - 1944
26 Pts
Spd 4
Def 5 / 4
AI: 9 / 9 / 7
AV: 13 / 11 / 9
Brushcutters
Veteran Crew


Here's a vehicle where the HHRC may have ruled itself into a bit of a hole. The Sherman is now 23 points, and the Panzer IV is probably going to cost 26 - 27 points.

Many people felt that the Rhino was already too cheap at 26 points, and the fact that we've raised the Sherman would incline us to further raise the Rhino. However, the lowering of the Panzer IV would encourage us to lower the Rhino cost as well - unless we can demonstrate that the Rhino is a better tank than the Panzer IV.

For my money, in it's current state, it is. But again, that's a cost issue - and our first mission is history.

Are these the appropriate stats for the Rhino? Are Brushcutters and Veteran Crew appropriate for what they do, and for this unit?

[Danyel Phelps]

Veteran crew should have never been placed on this unit. It should not have been placed on any unit, to tell the truth.

So, we can say that all Rhino crews were veterans. What does that make everyone else? Newbs?

[RaidingParty]

First, I'd keep the Brushcutters SA. It may not make sense for a tank to mow through forests, but it's close enough.

I totally agree with Danyel. The synergy of Veteran Crew + Brushcutters make it a monster in any map with a forest. A forest becomes a 50/50 wall of protection for the Rhino. It has the ability to fearlessly flank armies near forests, to hit and run behind cover even when disrupted, and maybe some strategies I haven't thought of yet. Even without forest, the Veteran Crew SA gives a disrupted Rhino a big advantage over a disrupted Panzer, especially when both are hiding in cover.

I'd charge a Rhino minus Veteran Crew around or slightly above the Panzer's cost. With Veteran Crew, it should be at least 30 points.

[PatrickWR]

Is there some way we can re-name Veteran Crew to something less gimmicky, but keep the ability?

Otherwise I'm fine with killing that SA and costing this demasculated Rhino at around 26 points. The Easy Eight (a good comparison to the new Rhino) is 27 points right now.

Balance-wise, it does seem appropriate for the Allies to have 3 Sherman variants at 23-27 points, while the Axis Germans only have one (Panzer IV G).

[Bastogne_Bulldog]

Why not just kill it off altogether? Why agonize over a mess the developers created, just drop it from HHR.

[PatrickWR]

To be fair, I do like the Brushcutters SA, and it's painfully historical: normal M4 Shermans were cut to ribbons in Normandy before engineers started welding hedgechoppers onto the front of them. I think that translates fairly well as "may enter forests without a movement roll."

[Vulturedoodle]

To tell the truth, I'd be in favor of dropping Veteran and SS Det. and any other similar ability as special abilities. I'd much prefer crew quality to be a purchasable upgrade for any qualifying unit. If we're gonna be printing our own cards, it's not a very big stretch to have different cards (and costs) for units with different crews (green, veteran, elite?).

Even without that, I'd just as soon get rid of the SA as written. Brushcutter is okay as is.

--SEF

[Joisey]

Keep the brush cutter SA, and get rid of the Veteran crew SA. Peg its cost to the panzer IV's at 26, make the E8 27.

[PatrickWR]

Keep the brush cutter SA, and get rid of the Veteran crew SA. Peg its cost to the panzer IV's at 26, make the E8 27.

Took the words right outta my mouth...

[Ming]

To tell the truth, I'd be in favor of dropping Veteran and SS Det. and any other similar ability as special abilities. I'd much prefer crew quality to be a purchasable upgrade for any qualifying unit.
*snip*
--SEF

I.
Love.
This.
Idea.


I love it so much, that when I thought of it myself while reading the thread I nearly died of a broken heart when I saw you had already typed it up.

The problem though, is that different cards for the same essential unit is very messy. If the HHR considered this route, I think it would better be done by just printing off a reference card of all purchasable unit upgrades. I'd like to see this discussed in its own thread.

[Comassion]

To tell the truth, I'd be in favor of dropping Veteran and SS Det. and any other similar ability as special abilities. I'd much prefer crew quality to be a purchasable upgrade for any qualifying unit. If we're gonna be printing our own cards, it's not a very big stretch to have different cards (and costs) for units with different crews (green, veteran, elite?).

I like this idea quite a bit, and I think it would be a great thing to add to units later, by having multiple cards with special crew or abilities for a single miniature. That handily solves another issue we had with multi-national units like the T-26.

For now, I'd like to see us just produce one 'basic' version of each unit (dropping SS-Determination and Veteran Crew and the like), and then after we release our first set of cards we can explore any issues that arise from the basic set, as well as adding additional units like an SS-Panther or a Veteran Sherman.

[Comassion]

That said, here's Joisey's proposed revision of the unit - a basic Rhino.

M4 Sherman "Rhino" - 1944
?? Pts
Spd 4
Def 5 / 4
AI: 9 / 9 / 7
AV: 13 / 11 / 9
Brushcutters

Do we like these stats?

[Bobsalt]

I like this idea quite a bit, and I think it would be a great thing to add to units later, by having multiple cards with special crew or abilities for a single miniature. That handily solves another issue we had with multi-national units like the T-26.

For now, I'd like to see us just produce one 'basic' version of each unit (dropping SS-Determination and Veteran Crew and the like), and then after we release our first set of cards we can explore any issues that arise from the basic set, as well as adding additional units like an SS-Panther or a Veteran Sherman.

I really like the idea of things like Veteran Crew being separate abilities that can be purchased by any unit. I’ve actually suggested this on the main board. There may a problem with this, though. Several people who have played similar games to this have said that being able to buy Special Ability cards for units has caused problems with play balance in those games. I’d hate to see us do something like this and end up being the author of something even more broken than Teletroopers, for example. Another hurdle here is trying to determine what a particular SA should cost. For example, the SA’s for the Pz IVF2 are only worth 2 points combined according to WotC. But what would they be worth if purchased for a Tiger?

Having said all this as a devil’s advocate, I still like the idea, and would like to see things like SS Determination be separate, purchasable abilities. The question is whether or not we can come up with a matrix for costing them that makes sense. My gut feeling is that this is the sort of thing that would require an unbelievable amount of playtesting.

At any rate, I think the idea of creating two of each of these kinds of units (such as both a Rhino with Veteran Crew and a “vanilla” one) is a good one.

That said, here's Joisey's proposed revision of the unit - a basic Rhino.

M4 Sherman "Rhino" - 1944
?? Pts
Spd 4
Def 5 / 4
AI: 9 / 9 / 7
AV: 13 / 11 / 9
Brushcutters

Do we like these stats?

I’m OK with this. Brushcutters to me would be worth only a point or two – the real factor in this being 5 points higher than the standard Sherman is the Veteran Crew.

[Danyel Phelps]

Before we close the book on the subject, let me say that the Brush cutters weren't as effective as they are portrayed in the SA. It still took a dedicated "lunge" from the tank, and it did slow them down. Sometimes, it would even take as much as several "jabs" to cut through a hedge with the Cullin's hedgerow devices.

To model the SA more accurately I propose a simple +x to die rolls to enter a forest.

[Comassion]

I like Danyel's idea of a +x to rolls to enter forests for Brushcutters. As mentioned before, they were designed specifically to get the tank though the hedgerows of Normandy - not the woods terrain represented on the map. However, since there isn't any hedgerow terrain, a bonus on the die roll to enter forests seems good to me.

How about:

Brushcutters: This unit recieves a +2 on die rolls to enter forests.

So there's still a 1/6 chance that the Rhino won't make it. I considered a +1, but we need to cost this unit relative to the Sherman, and I think Brushcutters are only worth a single point at best.

At any rate, I think the idea of creating two of each of these kinds of units (such as both a Rhino with Veteran Crew and a “vanilla” one) is a good one.

It's better for us to develop seperate units with the crew on them than to make 'veteran' or 'elite' crew a purchasable ability - after all, an 'Elite Crew' on a Panzer IV will never be worth an 'Elite Crew' on a Tiger. If we just make a Veteran Panzer IV as a unit, we can cost it appropriately, along with a Veteran Tiger unit, and balance issues can be addressed specifically with the units in mind rather than an ability matrix. As I mentioned, it solves multinational units as well - we can release British and Polish-crewed Shermans, and Russian-crewed T-26s.

[Ming]

'Elite Crew' on a Panzer IV will never be worth an 'Elite Crew' on a Tiger.

I think we'll find that easy enough to balance. Simply tie the cost of the upgrade to the cost of the unit. For example, 10% of the unit cost. Let's say the base cost for 'Veteran Crew' is 1 point. So buying it for a Carro Armato would cost 1 point. If purchasing for a sherman, it would cost 2 points. For a 30 something point unit, 3 points. 60+ points Tiger, 6 points. etc. I'm confident we can make this mechanic work, remember we'll be nixing most of the unrealistically broken abilities for units anyway, and this is before we've even rebalanced the SA.



If we just make a Veteran Panzer IV as a unit, we can cost it appropriately, along with a Veteran Tiger unit, and balance issues can be addressed specifically with the units in mind rather than an ability matrix. As I mentioned, it solves multinational units as well - we can release British and Polish-crewed Shermans, and Russian-crewed T-26s.


I fully support separate cards for nationalities, but I'd rather not have extra cards for purchasable crew abilities like veteran crew and SS determination. It just feels messy. . . although since (in theory) we'll be able to print off any cards we feel like from the computer it really shouldn't be a problem.

[Comassion]

You make good points, but let's table the issue for now and go back to the Rhino. We'll discuss future unit cards and add-on SA's after the first release of HHR's units.

[PatrickWR]

Good discussion on the Rhino, y'all. I'm in favor of Brushcutters granting a +2 on the roll to enter forests. Still a chance for failure, but worth the points. Makes the Rhino a pleasant alternative to both the Sherman and the Easy Eight.

I'm ok with dropping the "crew" abilities, but if any of them should stay, it's SS-Determination. The Waffen-SS truly was an elite fighting corps...they got the best weaponry and AFVs in most cases. During several notable instances, including the Battle of Kursk, SS divisions showed their prowess by making considerable gains while their Wehrmacht brothers were repulsed by Soviet defenders.
It also adds flavor to the game, much like the Hard Charging SA for the Screaming Eagles. Neither of these are "veteran crew" abilities...rather, they reflect the fighting prowess of entire fighting divisions. I think they should stay.

[Ming]

You make good points, but let's table the issue for now and go back to the Rhino. We'll discuss future unit cards and add-on SA's after the first release of HHR's units.

Right. Consider this a motion to open a thread on the subject at the appropriate time.


As to the Rhino, No objections to proposed brushcutters.

[Danyel Phelps]

Good discussion on the Rhino, y'all. I'm in favor of Brushcutters granting a +2 on the roll to enter forests. Still a chance for failure, but worth the points. Makes the Rhino a pleasant alternative to both the Sherman and the Easy Eight.

I'm ok with dropping the "crew" abilities, but if any of them should stay, it's SS-Determination. The Waffen-SS truly was an elite fighting corps...they got the best weaponry and AFVs in most cases. During several notable instances, including the Battle of Kursk, SS divisions showed their prowess by making considerable gains while their Wehrmacht brothers were repulsed by Soviet defenders.
It also adds flavor to the game, much like the Hard Charging SA for the Screaming Eagles. Neither of these are "veteran crew" abilities...rather, they reflect the fighting prowess of entire fighting divisions. I think they should stay.
If we were going to make that special exception for the SS, should we make the same decision for the 4th Armored Division which absolutely devistated most German units they came against, or Soviet Red Guards?

[Comassion]

I don't think we should make that exception. I think we should come up with a basic template of each unit - dropping SS and Guards and Veteran where appropriate - and publishing that in our first version. Many non-SS units used the Panther - it was even issued to green crews at times.

Then we'll bring them back as new units in a second version of HHR's rules, as well as revising any units that show up as unbalanced or useless in playtesting. Then you'll have Guards T-34/85s, SS-Panthers (and perhaps an SS-Tiger?), Veteran Shermans, and so forth.

[Vulturedoodle]

Brushcutters: This unit recieves a +2 on die rolls to enter forests.
Gets my no-count vote. Worth a point: not automatic but close to it. As a general rule, I don't like auto-success/auto-fail.

--SEF

[PatrickWR]

I don't think we should make that exception. I think we should come up with a basic template of each unit - dropping SS and Guards and Veteran where appropriate - and publishing that in our first version. Many non-SS units used the Panther - it was even issued to green crews at times.

Then we'll bring them back as new units in a second version of HHR's rules, as well as revising any units that show up as unbalanced or useless in playtesting. Then you'll have Guards T-34/85s, SS-Panthers (and perhaps an SS-Tiger?), Veteran Shermans, and so forth.

Ok, so we'll issue "factory" models with standard crews this go-round, then revisit veteran crews and whatnot with a future set. Sounds doable.

[Comassion]

Okay then, Joisey's Rhino:

M4 Sherman "Rhino" - 1944
24 Pts
Spd 4
Def 5 / 4
AI: 9 / 9 / 7
AV: 13 / 11 / 9
Brushcutters (+2 to movement rolls to enter forests)

I set the cost at 24, since that's the only reasonable cost for this unit in light of the very similar Sherman stats (of course, sticking Brushcutters on a Sherman tank made for a very similar tank...). So you basically pay a point for Brushcutters, on top of the 23 we already had for the Sherman.

Voting time. I votes yes.

[PatrickWR]

I vote yes. Let's seal the deal and move on to something else (hint: Jagdpanther).

[Bobsalt]

I can live with this.

[Domhnall101]

something a little like this?

[Domhnall101]

Okay then, Joisey's Rhino:



Voting time. I votes yes.

I votes yes too! (my presiousesessss yessss.)

[Comassion]

The Veteran version won't be official HHR until we go through and discuss Veteran units later, but since the card is already there and 28 points doesn't seem too horribly unbalanced, I think we can keep it for now. On to other topics - I have a trio of units to propose, the Jagdpanther being one of them.

[Bobsalt]

One thing, though - the Veteran Rhino has a rear armor of 5 on the stat card.

[Comassion]

Good catch, needs fixing.