HHR M18 Hellcat

[Comassion]

The M18s have a lot of punch, but they only get to use it once. Their defense is so low that you're basically buying a one-shot missile. You'd probably be better off with Bazooka/Jeep or Flamethrower/Jeep combos instead. Hate to say that because I like the Hellcat, but without a healthy dose of luck, it just doesn't survive long enough to be the backbone of your anti-armor team.

-Y2UAsk


I have a proposal to fix that, and make the Hellcat a really neat unit.

M18 Hellcat - 1944
20 Pts
Spd 5
Def 3/2
AI: 6 / 6 / 4
AV: 14 / 12 / 10
High Gear 2
Flanking Attack


My proposal is this:

1. Change the wording of Flanking attack to the following:

Flanking Attack 2: If this unit attacks a vehicle's rear, it may move at speed 2 after attacking.

2. Re-cost as appropriate.


Basically, Flanking Attack becomes Strike and Fade with the requirement that you attack the rear of a vehicle. This is great, since it represents a Hellcat's ability to catch a tank off-guard (with the turret facing the wrong way), squeeze off a shot, and get out of dodge before the tank can shoot back. However, if the Hellcat is alone, the tank can be prepared for it, and always be able to face the enemy.

Imagine playing with 2 Hellcats stalking a German tank, and you'll see why I think this is a neat idea.

HHR Committee, go!

[Ming]

I don't like the idea of restricting the M-18s 'Strike and Fade' to flank shots for a number of reasons. 1.) It should still be able to fade no matter where it attacks from. 2.) The game does not model the facing of the enemy turret, and 3.) It can now 'fade' from other units it would otherwise not be able to, only by virtue of its firing at a separate model.


I have a couple of ideas. The first one borrows from the AT gun rules.
Tank Destroyer Fire - At the end of the movement phase, if this unit has not moved, it may make one attack against a vehicle in LOS. It may not fire in the assault phase.

This allows the M-18 to lie in wait, get off a shot, and then retreat in the assault phase. It basically exchanges the assault and movement phases for this unit, so I think it would allow it to function more historically without overpowering it. Also note, unlike the AT gun SA, the damage counters are face down and would behave as though they were received in the ensuing Assault phase.

Another Idea that I'm a little more fond of, but would introduce another exception to the game:

Shoot 'N Scoot - This unit may fire in the movement phase. If it does so, it may not fire in the assault phase.

Basically it has the same effect, but this one does not have to wait for for the opposing player to move. This way you can perfectly position your M-10s in the assault phase, gamble on winning initiative and get a flank shot on the next movement phase, then run like hell in the ensuing assault phase. As before, counters are face down.

I like the second more than the first, but it's introducing another 'exception' mechanic to the game, while the first slightly modifies one we've already accepted.

[PatrickWR]

Gee, I like all three proposed SAs equally. For simplicities' sake, I'm drawn to Ming's second choice: the Hellcat can attack in the movement phase and move in the assault phase. But I worry that this can make it nigh-untouchable...thoughts?

[dracos42]

All right , the Hellcat! My favorite AFV of WW-II. The poor beastie doesn't get any respect in AAM.I like both Flanking Attack and Shoot and Scoot for the Hellcat. But I don't know which to choose. And no time to playtest till after New Years. :( I think the Hellcat should get Extended Range 10. And the M5 AT should get Extended Range 10 also.

Michael

[Ming]

Gee, I like all three proposed SAs equally. For simplicities' sake, I'm drawn to Ming's second choice: the Hellcat can attack in the movement phase and move in the assault phase. But I worry that this can make it nigh-untouchable...thoughts?


It makes initiative more important for the tank destroyers. (You can tell I love initiative.)

The M-18s are only 'untouchable' if they get the drop on the enemy tanks, (Win initiative.) which I think is pretty historical. If the Axis player 'spots' or is ready for them, (Americans lose initiative.) they'll still trade fire, almost certainly leading to a wrecked M-18. Which is why the counters are face down. If they were face up like the AT guns, yeah, that'd break 'em for sure.

Even if they do win initiative, if the Axis player is tactically wise, comes from multiple angles, and covers the flanks, they might corner the little M-18 or force it to withdraw totally out of the firefight for a turn or two.

[Comassion]

I like your ideas, but there's an issue with allowing a unit to switch it's movement and fire phases - basically, that you're potentially allowing the Hellcat to both determine the range of engagement by moving (second in the assault phase) and then take advantage of your choice engagement range by firing (first in the next movement phase) before your opponent can respond by moving his own armor, which doesn't happen for any other vehicle. (if the Americans go second, and then go first, which certainly doesn't always happen.)

Furthermore, if you can make that happen, you can then move the Hellcat to safety. It would make the unit very difficult to cost, in that it could be extremely powerful against Axis armor by attacking without retaliation, or it could be a weak unit that still dies in an exchange of fire, all dependant on initiative rolls.

It's like having a strange form of Strike and Fade 5 where you can't move your vehicle in the movement phase. Maybe it does work, but I still like the re-worded Flanking Attack. I realize that it does allow you to target a vehicle other than one that might be your primary target to take advantage of the movement, but it adds a lot of flavor to the Hellcat and really encourages it to use it's speed to take a rear shot on something. And since it isn't as good as Strike and Fade, it can still be competitive in terms of cost. And it's still somewhat dependant on initiative, but it's not going to let you both determine the engagement range and fire right afterwards. I'm not sure if that's too powerful or not... and hence, the complex issue with costing a 'fire in the movement phase' version.

I think the Hellcat should get Extended Range 10.

I'm happy to consider the idea, but what would justify it?

[Bobsalt]

I have to tell you, I really love the idea of Shoot and Scoot. (I'm thinking out loud as I'm writing this, so work with me here – I don’t have time at the moment for a deep and considered reply) I'm not sure this is too powerful. The only scenario I see where it's invulnerable is if it goes second in one turn (choosing to move instead of fire in the assault phase), then wins initiative to go first in the ensuing turn. It also assumes that the German player has left a unit exposed at the end of the previous turn. As the Allied player, you have an interesting choice that I think fits well with the "rock, paper, scissors" nature of the game. If you set the Hellcat up for a shot in the movement phase of the next turn, and you lose the initiative for that turn, you could find it being cut off, and with the low armor, it would probably get killed.

The big thing I like about it is that it makes maneuver as important as firing (at least for this unit). What I see too often in the game is the mentality of running a tank up to range one on an enemy tank for an exchange. “Yeah, you’ll kill me, but my tank doesn’t cost as much as yours, so I come out ahead.” This wasn’t something that the crews would historically have been all that much up for. I like the fact that this SA is going to emphasize maneuver. Anyone can just sit there and shoot – the real tactician uses maneuver to gain an advantage. With this SA, the Hellcat would still be hard to use, but the player who does so effectively will gain an advantage, which to me is realistic.

I think this is a good suggestion for any of the AT units that relied on getting off a shot or two and then running before they could be targeted (Archer, anyone?). I’d like to see this one at least play tested.

I also like giving tank destroyers the same ability we discussed for AT guns (don’t remember what we called it).

I’d be against extended range for the M-18 unless someone can come up with justification.

[PatrickWR]

The thing with Shoot n Scoot is, it's like no ability we've ever considered before in this game. It can (and likely will) have unforseen impacts on certain SA's. Think about how SnS will interact with disembarking troops from a transport. Now the Axis player will have to think long and hard about EVER leaving a unit aboard a transport, because the Hellcat has a very real chance of eliminating the transport before it gets a chance to move.

That said, Comassion's proposal is a slightly watered-down version of Strike and Fade, which is something we know how to work with and cost properly.

[Domhnall101]

I am pretty much against bringing assault actions into the movement segment. The possiblity of creating complcations and unforseen results is too great at this stage. I think we may want to look at it again in revision2 but not now.
I am ok with Comassion's watered down strike and fade idea but I think on the whole my preference is for Bobsalt's suggestion to bring a variety of First Shot. If it makes historical sense that is.
I think we are better off using existing SA's Altered or otherwise than make new ones more than apsolutly nessessary

(

[Ming]

- basically, that you're potentially allowing the Hellcat to both determine the range of engagement by moving (second in the assault phase) and then take advantage of your choice engagement range by firing (first in the next movement phase) before your opponent can respond by moving his own armor, which doesn't happen for any other vehicle. (if the Americans go second, and then go first, which certainly doesn't always happen.)

Furthermore, if you can make that happen, you can then move the Hellcat to safety. It would make the unit very difficult to cost, in that it could be extremely powerful against Axis armor by attacking without retaliation, or it could be a weak unit that still dies in an exchange of fire, all dependant on initiative rolls.



I anticipated that, notice that Tank Destroyer Fire takes place at the end of the movement phase, after both sides' units have finished moving. We could reword it to say just prior to the assault phase or whatever, the main thing is that it would fire before other units, regardless of initiative. In this scenario, the opposing player could still reposition or withdraw if the US player moves his M-18 in striking range during his assault phase.

This SA is only a more flexible version of the AT Gun SA we've already accepted. Less powerful, but more mobile. (You get movement in the assault phase instead of another shot.) If we're unwilling to introduce Shoot 'N Scoot's new exception, I really think this should be considered.

I would be happier with Comassion's suggestion if the game modeled Turret positioning and units had individual initiative. As it is, it seems to me like an artificial mechanic to reward a historical tactic, not a historical rule resulting in historical usage of units.

Another way to nix it is to reword Shoot 'N Scoot so that the M-18 doesn't have a choice, it always fires in the movement phase and never in the assault phase. I think it deserves a playtest as is before we decide that, though. The scenario described depends on the Allied player forfeiting one initiative, having the Germans walk into a prepared position on their assault phase, rolling a successful attack, then winning the initiative on the next turn. In my experience, most Axis players are quite leery of taking an unreturned hit from the 76 mm gun.

There's still PLENTY of tactics to use against this. Extendend Range Guns, for one. Or dismount your infantry and flank it along with fast/light vehicles if you win initiative.

[Joisey]

I vote against shoot n scoot. I think it has the potential to upset play balance. Proponents of every nationality will want their tank destroyers equipped with the same SA. Are you prepared to give the german players Shoot n Scoot on the jagdpanther? And the Nashorn, Elefante, Hetzer, etc, etc.?

I also am willing to give the M18 an extended range SA in order to offset it's weaker armor stats. Superior Optics, like on the Nashorn, is also an option.

[Joisey]

Research on Wikipedia and wwIIvehicles.com indicates that the 1944 Hellcat (our mini) had the same 76mm gun as the E8 has. The AV stats for both minis are identical, so I guess they got that part right.

Another approach is to recost the M18 to justify it's throw-away performance. If it only cost 15 points, would you want to field it more often? Are six M18's worth 4 shermans?

[Comassion]

I don't think we want to just drop the cost- the M-18 wasn't a throw-away vehicle any more than a Sherman was. It had a gun capable of taking down German tanks, and while it couldn't survive return fire very well, it could generally get the first shot off, and move away. Strike and fade reflects this, but I prefer the altered version of Strike and Fade (flanking attack), because it has a bit more flavor than S&F and really fits in will with the incredible speed of the Hellcat.

[Ming]

Are you prepared to give the german players Shoot n Scoot on the jagdpanther? And the Nashorn, Elefante, Hetzer, etc, etc.?



I am if their speed and tactical use warrant it.

I designed it as a general 'tank destroyer' special ability, so yes, it would be assigned where appropriate.

[Danyel Phelps]

Turetless vehicles cannot shoot n' scoot, period. Not many, if any, German Tank Destroyers would have this ability anyway. They CAN move, stop, turn, fire, turn, and move again. But this is NOT shooting and scooting. Shoot n' scoot tactics require a turret.

[Ming]

I still support Tank Destroyer Fire and Shoot 'N Scoot for playtesting, but in the interest of furthering discussion I've worked on the issue some more. This SA changes no turn mechanics, and doesn't even change positioning on the board, so it is unlikely to throw off the balance of the game.

Shoot And Scoot - After firing in the assault phase, this unit may use its Speed value in place of its Defense value when taking fire from vehicles.

I suspect if you also gave the unit a modest strike and fade (Comassion's Flanking Fire, why not?) that it would be much more survivable. It still depends on initiative to be effective, but as I understand it, if you weren't staying 1 step ahead of the enemy tanks, you weren't shooting and scooting.

[dracos42]

About Extended Range for the M-18, I'll approach the question from a different direction. Why are the German 75mm guns and the Archer getting Extended Range 10 (and 12 for the Panther)? My best guess is that it is due to some combination of muzzle velocity (the shell's velocity?) and penetration values at longer ranges. I don't think it is optics, as the Archer has the greater range.

I don't have the time to do the research now. But everything I've seen up to this point leads me to believe that the US 76mm had an effective range of 1000m+.

Michael Lyons
have lab coat, will travel

[Comassion]

The Archer had the magnificent British 17-lb gun, if I recall. That thing could smash German armor from the front at long ranges.

Shoot And Scoot - After firing in the assault phase, this unit may use its Speed value in place of its Defense value when taking fire from vehicles.


Interesting take on the SA. Using speed value for defense does reflect faster vehicles being harder to hit, but it also gets wierd when the unit is disrupted or damaged.

Anyway, let's have a vote.

1. Give the Hellcat Shoot and Scoot (as phrased above).

2. Give the Hellcat Flanking Attack 2: If this unit attacks a vehicle's rear, it may move at speed 2 after attacking.

3. Give the Hellcat Strike and Fade 2.

4. Give the Hellcat no new SA's and re-cost it to be useful.

I vote for option 2, for the reasons I stated above.

To clarify our voting system, we need to have a clear majority (that is, three) in favor of one option to pass. If none of the options gets three or more votes, we'll continue discussion.

[Domhnall101]

The Archer had the magnificent British 17-lb gun, if I recall. That thing could smash German armor from the front at long ranges.



Interesting take on the SA. Using speed value for defense does reflect faster vehicles being harder to hit, but it also gets wierd when the unit is disrupted or damaged.

Anyway, let's have a vote.

1. Give the Hellcat Shoot and Scoot (as phrased above).

2. Give the Hellcat Flanking Attack 2: If this unit attacks a vehicle's rear, it may move at speed 2 after attacking.

3. Give the Hellcat Strike and Fade 2.

4. Give the Hellcat no new SA's and re-cost it to be useful.

I vote for option 2, for the reasons I stated above.

To clarify our voting system, we need to have a clear majority (that is, three) in favor of one option to pass. If none of the options gets three or more votes, we'll continue discussion.


i tend to agree. i don't want to mess too much with the basic structure of the turn either so it option 2 for me. I also prefer the idea of rules that reward good tactics and not just flat out bonuses. you won't get to use this SA all the time but if you plan and manouver correctly...

[Bobsalt]

Let me see if I understand the proposed Flanking Attack SA (as well as the game mechanics).

The proposed SA allows a movement of 2 after firing (ala S&F). Now, if one of the two hexes is along a road, then the M-18 gets a bonus hex for a movement of 3. And if both hexes are along a road, it would get the bonus hex and High Gear for moving a along a road, for a total possible move of 5?

If my understanding above is correct, I'll vote yes. This is still going to be a tough unit to use, but it has the potential to be really deadly if used skillfully.

[Comassion]

The proposed SA allows a movement of 2 after firing (ala S&F). Now, if one of the two hexes is along a road, then the M-18 gets a bonus hex for a movement of 3. And if both hexes are along a road, it would get the bonus hex and High Gear for moving a along a road, for a total possible move of 5?

All correct - just like Strike and Fade, except the Hellcat must attack a vehicle's rear to use it.

[Comassion]

That's three votes - and thus are the HHR Hellcat stats:

M18 Hellcat - 1944
?? Pts
Spd 5
Def 3/2
AI: 6 / 6 / 4
AV: 14 / 12 / 10
High Gear 2
Flanking Attack 2

On to cost. How much is this puppy worth?

Even though Flanking Attack makes it better, I think it's still worth about 20 points. Could someone post the stats / cost for the Archer? I think that's the best vehicle to compare it with, and that has both better AV values and Strike and Fade for 21 points.

[Domhnall101]

PT 21

Spd 2
Def 3/2
AI: 5 / 5 / 4
AV: 15 / 13 / 11

Fixed Rear Gun -
Extended Range
Strike and Fade 1

i think somthing in the 20-22 range is right

[Bobsalt]

I think it's still close at 20 points. The SA we've given it is a good one, but still difficult to use. With the armor of 3/2, even if used well, it's still very vulnerable to enemy fire. I'm not sure we've really done anything that will get it more game play. Of course, our goal is realism, and I think the stats are realistic. We have to accept that realism may mean that one unit or another will still not be played much.

[Comassion]

20 points sounds good to me. Yes vote here for cost remaining at 20.

[Domhnall101]

yup. yup . yup

[PatrickWR]

Yes, cost = 20 is fine with me.....FOR NOW.... :cool: