HHR Jagdpanther

[Comassion]

Extended Range 12 must count for a lot....


Jagdpanther - 1944
57 Pts
Spd 4
Def 6 / 4
AI: 6 / 6 / 4
AV: 18 / 15 / 13
No Turret
Extended Range 12
Superior Armor 2


I realize that the most skewed number up there is probably the cost, but as usual, history first.

Someone will have to look this up, but didn't the Jagdpanther have more armor (at least up front) than the Panther? That tends to be the point of some of the heavier Tank Destroyers - no turret = more armor.

If it's somewhere between the Tiger and the Panther, we could bump up the armor to 7, and drop Superior Armor 2.

But I'm just grasping at straws, and admit my ignorance - I have no idea how much armor the Jagdpanther sported. Research time!

[Y2UAsk]

According to my sources, although the JgPz weighed more by ~2 tons, their armor was basically the same -- about 100mm on the turrret/gun mantle, 80mm on the upper hull, 60mm on the lower hull. The chief difference was that more interior space allowed the JgPz to carry a larger gun. The JgPz might have enjoyed a functional armor advantage, however, because its continuous frontal armor was better sloped than the Panther's turret armor and didn't have a turret ring, which is always a weak point.

Steve

[PatrickWR]

The JgPz might have enjoyed a functional armor advantage, however, because its continuous frontal armor was better sloped than the Panther's turret armor and didn't have a turret ring, which is always a weak point.

Thus Superior Armor 2. :D Truth be told, I'm fine with the stats of the current Jagdpanther. I think we just need to re-cost it...in my personal house rules, I suggested cost = 48, bringing down to the neighborhood of the SS-Panther (the current benchmark in this game. Now that we're making stock tanks without crew-specific abilities, I think the JgPz should be somewhere lower...42? Let's take this discussion carefully, because this is our first heavy tank so far.

[Bobsalt]

I agree with Patrick - I've never had an issue with the actual stats - I just think it's costed too high. I think they really overrated the extended range on this - I see no way this unit is worth more than the SS Panther, which has similar stats, and can move while disrupted to boot.

[Comassion]

Okay. To speed things along, since I also think the stats are fine, we'll consider that a 'yes' vote on keeping the stats (unless someone objects), and move on to cost.

Patrick has put forth 48 as an appropriate cost for the unit. Thoughts?

[Bobsalt]

Okay. To speed things along, since I also think the stats are fine, we'll consider that a 'yes' vote on keeping the stats (unless someone objects), and move on to cost.

Patrick has put forth 48 as an appropriate cost for the unit. Thoughts?

Anyone have the stats of the JagPanther and the SS Panther handy for a side-by-side comparison? Going strictly from recall (a dangerous proposition for me), I'd question why a JagPanther was costed higher than the proposed 42 points I saw earlier for the Panther.

[Comassion]

Jagdpanther - 1944
57 Pts
Spd 4
Def 6 / 4
AI: 6 / 6 / 4
AV: 18 / 15 / 13
No Turret
Extended Range 12
Superior Armor 2

SS-Panther Ausf. G - 1942
49 Pts
Spd 4
Def 6 / 4
AI: 6 / 6 / 4
AV: 16 / 14 / 11
SS - Determination
Extended Range 12
Superior Armor 2

The basics of the comparison is that the SS-Panther gets SS-determination, -2 / -1 / -2 AV dice, and drops 'no turret'.

[Bobsalt]

Jagdpanther - 1944
57 Pts
Spd 4
Def 6 / 4
AI: 6 / 6 / 4
AV: 18 / 15 / 13
No Turret
Extended Range 12
Superior Armor 2

SS-Panther Ausf. G - 1942
49 Pts
Spd 4
Def 6 / 4
AI: 6 / 6 / 4
AV: 16 / 14 / 11
SS - Determination
Extended Range 12
Superior Armor 2

The basics of the comparison is that the SS-Panther gets SS-determination, -2 / -1 / -2 AV dice, and drops 'no turret'.

Looking at these, if the earlier proposed point value for the Panther w/o SS Determination is 42, the lack of a turret would seem to make the JagPanther a point or two less than the Panther in my opinion (it outweighs the slight increase in anti-AFV values). My thought is a vanilla Panther would be more like 44 or 45, with the JagPanther a point or two less.

[PatrickWR]

I like Bob's proposed points, but let's take 'em with a grain of salt so we can revisit 'em as we deal with more heavy tanks (this being our first, not counting the E8).

[Joisey]

Okay, I vote "No Change" on jgdpanther stats and vote to recost it at 42

[PatrickWR]

I like 42 too. :p

[Comassion]

Jagdpanther - 1944
42 Pts
Spd 4
Def 6 / 4
AI: 6 / 6 / 4
AV: 18 / 15 / 13
No Turret
Extended Range 12
Superior Armor 2

And thus it becometh law. I'll start a new topic on another unit after Christmas, we'll have a little slowdown for the holidays.