Possible Panzer 4

[Canadian_Pride33]

I belive the axis finally have a way of dealing with those pesky sherman swarms. The anwser is the one of the early Panzer Mark 4 models such as the (A,B,C,D,or E).all of these tanks were equiped with short-barreled guns but still have the ablities to take on a sherman, t-34, or other early allied tanks.

[Stojakovic]

I belive the axis finally have a way of dealing with those pesky sherman swarms. The anwser is the one of the early Panzer Mark 4 models such as the (A,B,C,D,or E).all of these tanks were equiped with short-barreled guns but still have the ablities to take on a sherman, t-34, or other early allied tanks.

Or there is something called the King Tiger ;)

['panzer' Mayer]

Or there is something called the King Tiger ;)

This is true

[jiminy_fatal]

ahh, the beautiful King Tiger. It is a beautiful tank, worthy of praise and worship.

[Canadian_Pride33]

sorry to correct my question, which low costing tank could deal with these. :o

['panzer' Mayer]

I belive the axis finally have a way of dealing with those pesky sherman swarms. The anwser is the one of the early Panzer Mark 4 models such as the (A,B,C,D,or E).all of these tanks were equiped with short-barreled guns but still have the ablities to take on a sherman, t-34, or other early allied tanks.


I would most likely go with panzer 4 e but thats me

[Andras]

The short 7.5s had almost no capability against armor, they were mostly infantry support with HE shells, as the 37 and 50mm gun tanks were assumed to be capable anti-tank vehicles.

[Canadian_Pride33]

The short 7.5s had no capability against armor, they were strictly anti-infantry with HE shells.

That is not true the short 7.5 did fire AP rounds

[Lynx7725]

The short 7.5s had no capability against armor, they were strictly anti-infantry with HE shells.
Not quite true, I had to research this topic for another post on Panzer IIIs, and this is what I found:
Taking gun penetration data from here (http://gva.freeweb.hu/index.html), and using only data for dedicated antitank rounds (HEAT rounds are actually pretty impressive in penetration but further cursory reading indicate they are pretty inaccurate), we can see that we can break down armour penetration to about the following:

50mm L/ 42 (Panzer III F)
100m: 94mm (100% firing accuracy)
500m: 55mm (100% firing accuracy)
1000m: 21mm (96% firing accuracy)
(Looks good but cuts off at 1000m)

75mm L/ 24 (Panzer III N/ Panzer IV D/ E)
100m: 41mm (100% firing accuracy)
500m: 38mm (100% firing accuracy)
1000m: 35mm (73% firing accuracy)
(Quite pathetic but extends to 30mm at 2000m)

75mm L/ 43 (Panzer IV G) (No firing accuracy figure)
100m: 126mm
500m: 108mm
1000m: 87mm

When you look at these figures, there is no way a 75mm L/ 24 can be justified to have good anti-vehicle figures. Granted, using HEAT rounds a 75mm L/ 24 can actually achieve 100mm of penetration up to 500m away (in practice), but the round is by reports inaccurate.
Taking a look at the M4A1's armour from the same site, it is reported to be at around 76mm for a frontal plate and turret. So an early war Panzer IV (A through F1) would have a hard time penetrating the M4A1's armour without using HEAT rounds (which is inaccurate beyond 500m), but a late-war Panzer IV (F2 onwards) has no issue taking out an M4 at even around 1000m.

If you want an opinion, a mid-production StuG III (with a long barrelled 75mm, Ausf. F onwards) should have little problem taking out a M4A1, and is reputed to be cheaper to produce than a Panzer IV (StuG III G costs 82500RM vs. Panzer IV F2's 115962RM).

EDIT: However, it is interesting to note that there are 4 patterns of HEAT rounds, and 3 of these had problems dealing with a M4's armour -- they could penetrate up to 75mm of armour, so they had to get lucky to kill a M4. The last could penetrate up to 100mm, but it's not clear when this round become available -- there are hints that this round, the PzGr.38 Hl/C, was only available around 1943, by which time most Panzer IVs are already Ausf. F2 or beyond.

[Andras]

L24 PzIVs were getting slapped around by T34s and KV1s long before they shot at any M4s (winter of 41-42).

Ok, so 'no' capability was an overstatement, but 'almost no' is accurate enough.

[Lynx7725]

L24 PzIVs were getting slapped around by T34s and KV1s long before they shot at any M4s (winter of 41-42).

Ok, so 'no' capability was an overstatement, but 'almost no' is accurate enough.
Heh, and this is what I said here (http://boards.avalonhill.com/showpost.php?p=95080&postcount=15)
(Aside: A glance at the T-34/ 76 armour data shows that it has (in general) 52mm armour on both front and turret. This means a 75mm L/ 24 is an extremely poor choice to use to tackle a T-34/ 76, at least with AT rounds -- a Panzer III with a 50mm L/ 42 is actually better. At close range though with HEAT rounds though, a 75mm L/ 24 has a good chance of taking out a T-34/ 76.)
They were at a disadvantage, true, but I've seen a photo of T-34s taken out by early Panzer IVs. They would be hard pressed to do decent damage though.

Sadly, most Soviet 76mm guns would slap early Panzer IVs (with their lower armour, < 50 mm frontal) around silly.

[Wyldman]

In my reading several PIVs with 75L24 guns took out T-34s at close range in the flank. All tanks are vulnerable in the flank, because of the tracks, even if WOTC does not think so and not just because of mobility. (no tank should have the same defense value for front and rear IMHO)

[Stuart]

Early model Panzer IVs with the short 75mm were intended for infantry support. The tank hunter role was assigned to the Panzer III etc.
Armour piercing ability for early AP shot depends on muzzle velocity. The faster it goes, the better in penetrates. The best way to make the round go faster is to shoot it down a long barrel. The short 75mm just didn't cut it as an anti tank weapon.
Once the Panzer IV F was modified to take the long 75mm, it could support infantry and knock out tanks. The Panzer III became redundant which is why the Germans stopped making it.

[Stuart]

Sadly, most Soviet 76mm guns would slap early Panzer IVs (with their lower armour, < 50 mm frontal) around silly.
Unfortunately for the Red Army in 1941, there wasn't enough armour piercing ammo to go round. Coupled with the fact that Stalin had shot or imprisoned nearly everyone who knew what they were doing, the Red Army in the west was in a really poor state when the Germans attacked. It was quite common for units to carry out basic training during quiet periods in the fighting ie how to drive your tank.
On paper, the T-34 and KV-1 should walk all over the Panzer III and 38t but the Germans had big advantages with the quality and training of their troops along with their tactics, command control, morale, experience in Poland and France etc. etc.