Angriff and Halftracks and dismounting in the assault phase

[Modern Major-General]

Here is the question from the Q&A forum. Since other people can not reply to those questions I am putting it here. Also, the Answer Team has looked at it and will give a reply later. I think the answer is simply not to allow what the guy is asking.

I was wondering:
If I had three German Half-tracks in a row. Each has a soilder on it. The middle soilder is a Weirmacht Oberluitenant (spelling errror) with Angriff.

Since the half-tracks grant the units they are carrying the ability to attack during their attack phase if the half-track does not move (the attack portion is not restricted)

Can I use the WOL's Angriff to get the soilders to move against an adjacent enemy and attack them at +1 on the attack dice?

So, basically I rumble up with my 3 half tracks, 1 WOL and a couple of vehicle assualt type infantry and have a quick run at my opponent. Does this work? The transport doesn't reduce the movement speed of the infantry to 0, they just are restricted from normal movement (which is not the same as saying a unit with Distruption counter cannot move) but the WOL grants them the ability to move (not normal movement) and then assualt.


Angiff allows a unit to move and attack in the assault phase. No free dismounting. Page 31, transport: "...a Soldier that starts its movement phase boarded can use its move in the movement phase to "dismount" it (the vehicle)."

[Mr_G]

Here is the question from the Q&A forum. Since other people can not reply to those questions I am putting it here. Also, the Answer Team has looked at it and will give a reply later. I think the answer is simply not to allow what the guy is asking.



Angiff allows a unit to move and attack in the assault phase. No free dismounting. Page 31, transport: "...a Soldier that starts its movement phase boarded can use its move in the movement phase to "dismount" it (the vehicle)."

If it was the (controversial) Panzergrenadier, I would llow it since it can dismount freely from a vehicle with transport. Otherwise, I think not since said soldier has to dismount from the vehicle during the movement phase (at this point I assume that he is still on-board the transport) and not in the assault phase.

[Colonel_Coo]

The trouble will be with the Dismount and Move portion. One restricts it and the other allows it. So far, only Face Up Disruption Counter has been an "Absolute No Move" ruled against Angriff/Banzaii Charge. That lack of "overwrite the rules" with commander abilities was decided as a hard rule for Disruption counters. What will come next is if the Commander ability overcomes the special ability. They are not just looking into this one scenario, they are looking into other (possible future capabilities) scenarios as well.

I would allow a Well Lead (14pt WOL) highly mobile (42 points of Half-tracks) elite infantry (8 to 10 points) to do this functionally. At a total expense of 64 points this is not some function that can easily occur.

Now, they may say, it doesn't matter about the Fighting Platform (grants ability to attack) or that the Transport is more important than the Command Ability. My personal belief is that they'll rule in favor of the Command Ability allowing the attack to work.
This is nice uber attack for the Germans (not for the Japanese since they have no transport).

[Modern Major-General]

Have to disagree. "Dismounting" is something that Soldiers do in the movement phase.

Also, Panzergrenadiers get the "free dismount" as part of the Mechanized Tactics at the end of your movement phase.

But that is just my take on the rules.

[Mr_G]

Have to disagree. "Dismounting" is something that Soldiers do in the movement phase.

Also, Panzergrenadiers get the "free dismount" as part of the Mechanized Tactics at the end of your movement phase.

But that is just my take on the rules.

either way, that angriff only allows a free attack as the soldier takes it's move... not a free dismount/move.

[Colonel_Coo]

Have to disagree. "Dismounting" is something that Soldiers do in the movement phase.

Also, Panzergrenadiers get the "free dismount" as part of the Mechanized Tactics at the end of your movement phase.

But that is just my take on the rules.
No trouble on the disagree part.
Personally, about the only thing I really dislike about the rules as it stand is the infernal Paratroopers. That ability to time a paratroop drop in a SEVEN minute engagement and drop perfectly into the best position on the board is really bad science.

As a segway about rules and such I also would have liked to seen the Polish Calvary come out with 3 optional nationalities on it (Poland, German, Russian) as well as 2 for the Cossack Captain (Russian, German)

[Remember-OWS-]

Bob or Steve for WOTC told me that the US Para did not drop from planes, but rather use the best route, the best cover and the fastest possible way to achieve their spot on the map.

[Colonel_Coo]

Bob or Steve for WOTC told me that the US Para did not drop from planes, but rather use the best route, the best cover and the fastest possible way to achieve their spot on the map.
I think that is in response the total Bad Science that the game mechanic dropped into the game. If they WoTC would like to balance it, they should build a unit for German that represents their Sneakiness leading to the battle of the Buldge. A few germans disguised as American sure put a knot in the allies line.

[Remember-OWS-]

Wait and see the Fallschirmjäger... They will be deadly, more imposing than the SS-Panzergrenadier.

[Mr_G]

I think that is in response the total Bad Science that the game mechanic dropped into the game. If they WoTC would like to balance it, they should build a unit for German that represents their Sneakiness leading to the battle of the Buldge. A few germans disguised as American sure put a knot in the allies line.

Nothing prevents anyone from writing scenarios using special rules for such things... until they (WotC) can/want to create units such as these.

[Remember-OWS-]

The Gebirg unit will probably appear in AAM in a later set... They used the camo the best way possible. Sneaky and Deadly

[Modern Major-General]

No trouble on the disagree part.
Personally, about the only thing I really dislike about the rules as it stand is the infernal Paratroopers. That ability to time a paratroop drop in a SEVEN minute engagement and drop perfectly into the best position on the board is really bad science.

As a segway about rules and such I also would have liked to seen the Polish Calvary come out with 3 optional nationalities on it (Poland, German, Russian) as well as 2 for the Cossack Captain (Russian, German)

Hey, you got everyone talking about Paratroopers now. Way to take my thread on a tangent. :) Start your own thread. :)

Also, for Cavalry, I am sure we will get some Cossack troops, since there is the Cossack Captain. (No I do not have any inside info. Just making a guess.)

[Joshua1399]

The trouble will be with the Dismount and Move portion. One restricts it and the other allows it. So far, only Face Up Disruption Counter has been an "Absolute No Move" ruled against Angriff/Banzaii Charge. That lack of "overwrite the rules" with commander abilities was decided as a hard rule for Disruption counters. What will come next is if the Commander ability overcomes the special ability. They are not just looking into this one scenario, they are looking into other (possible future capabilities) scenarios as well.

I would allow a Well Lead (14pt WOL) highly mobile (42 points of Half-tracks) elite infantry (8 to 10 points) to do this functionally. At a total expense of 64 points this is not some function that can easily occur.

Now, they may say, it doesn't matter about the Fighting Platform (grants ability to attack) or that the Transport is more important than the Command Ability. My personal belief is that they'll rule in favor of the Command Ability allowing the attack to work.
This is nice uber attack for the Germans (not for the Japanese since they have no transport).


Just my 2 cents woth but the actual A&A game before this treated mounting and dismounting as movement. And historically speaking, just like the transport boats on D-Day that just about rode straight up onto the beach and opened up for rapid deployment, I don't see why an officer can't give adjacent soldiers a boost for such a costly and well organized attack. However, this is my "point/counter-point" part, as far as the AAM rules go (as messed up as George W's vocabulary they may be) it specifically states in the glossary that can't trumps can. However, once again more to the historical point (actually it's more of a present day example) why can't they dismount and move/attack as one fluid movement? We have Bradley fighting vehicles today that ride to the front with Light Mechanized Infantry in the back who then hop out and get right to work.

So my final opinion is that it is, rule-wise, explainable to say NO but why make another ruling that trashes the historical accuracy and degrades the game for those who enjoy; as is witnessed on these posts by all the collective grumbling. Personally, I say vote YES on "Proposition 69" (a.k.a. the get off quick post)!

[Colonel_Coo]

Hey, you got everyone talking about Paratroopers now. Way to take my thread on a tangent. :) Start your own thread. :)

Also, for Cavalry, I am sure we will get some Cossack troops, since there is the Cossack Captain. (No I do not have any inside info. Just making a guess.)
oops sorry about that
:rolleyes:

[LoeweAusNorden]

Should be able to use ém like this, makes the skdfz better. I can´t really understand why this unit costs 14 points, and together with the PG (19 points) its as overprised as the flamingotank (just to vulnerable). But used together with the WOL the tactic can be sound...But I only play this combo when the units are set by the scenario...

[XAos]

My guess would be "no", the angriff should not allow a passenger unit to move 1 hex & close assault. Some reasons;
1) the special ability (angriff) may overide the rules but that doesn't mean it can overide (transport) which is itself a special ability.
2) If the passenger could move, would it still be considered to be "transported" since it never "dismounted". If so you would have a transported unit in a different hex from the vehicle that is curerntly transporting it. Thats crazier than a polish horse in a jeep, thats a horse 100yards from a jeep which is still being "transported" by the jeep. :rolleyes:

[Y2UAsk]

The answer (http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?p=105660#post105660)is now posted. I won't reiterate the whys and wherefores here because you can read them at the link, but the short answer is, "no."

Sorry. It was a slick combo. Maybe special abilities will appear in the future to make something like that allowable, but right now, it's not. :(

Steve

[Colonel_Coo]

The answer (http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?p=105660#post105660)is now posted. I won't reiterate the whys and wherefores here because you can read them at the link, but the short answer is, "no."

Sorry. It was a slick combo. Maybe special abilities will appear in the future to make something like that allowable, but right now, it's not. :(

Steve
Dang! :mad:

Darn. :(

At least I made you think :rolleyes: