Estimated SS StormTrooper Stats

[Joisey]

German fanboys should be salivating over the SS StormTrooper in Set III we got a peek of today. Looks like he's got a burp gun, and the "storm trooper" appelation implies one mean uber trooper!

And now, with all due homage to the Great Karnack:

Answer: A Trooper, A Pooper, and a Blooper

Ed McMahon: A trooper, a pooper, and a blooper....<hiccup>....Yes, Oh Great One

Karnack: Ewwwww.......May your daughter be gang lathered by a band of nomadic barbers......Uh Huh!!

Ed McMahon: Haw Haw Haw

Karnack: Oh, shut up Ed, you fawning toady!

Ed McMahon: Yes, Oh Great One!

Karnack: And now, the envelope, please.

Ed McMahon: Yes, Oh Great One. In my hand I hold the last envelope....

Karnack: <rips end of envelope and blows it open> Question: What do you get when you combine an SS storm trooper, a Luftwaffe infantry, and a Japanese tankette? Sim Sim Salabim

Ed McMahon: HiYOOOOOOO!


And Now, the Estimated Stats for the SS Storm Trooper:

Cost: 7
Speed: 1
Defense: 6/6
AI: 10/5/-
AV: 3/3/-

Limited Range: This unit's medium range limited to two hexes
Hand to Hand: 12

Ruthless: This unit rolls one extra die when attacking a disrupted or damaged enemy.
SS Fanaticism: This unit ignores any disruption effects.

[Raphael]

HiYOOOOOOO!

[Stojakovic]

I don't think it will be a 6/6 def. That is as strong as the KV-1 the soldier is not god. I am going with 5/5

[Arontje]

6/6 not a problem with the new sherman.... :P

But no elite inf at the most def 5.

No limited range I hope, just a sort of different version of ss panzergrenadier. other sa or so.

[PatrickWR]

Nah it'll probably be:

SS-Stormtrooper
Cost 5
Defense 4/4
7/5/-
2/-/-
Some weird, situational SA that's grossly overcosted.

I just went off the Panzergrenadier template and applied it to our new SS friend. :)

[Arontje]

Well,

I do think they would be more equel to the excisting SS unit....

[J.L.Robert]

If I had to guess...

Cost 7
Defense 4/4
12/6/-
3/-/-
Close Assault 8 or 9
Limited Range
SS Determination

[PatrickWR]

Well,

I do think they would be more equel to the excisting SS unit....

They should be far superior to the SS-Panzergrenadiers. SS-PGs were simply Waffen-SS soldiers who operated using mechanized tactics. SS-Stormtroopers were truly elite soldiers who were at the forefront of the fighting in the Eastern and Western fronts. I'll be pretty POed if they come in second place to SS-PGs in this game.

[Pasalades]

Upon reflection my kneejerk post probably isn't a good idea. Magic Reset Button!

[Stojakovic]

Well I went to google images and all I have to say is thanks for making me choke on my spaetzle...

[CaptainToaster]

Question. Where did you see a storm troooper exactly?

[CaptainToaster]

Never mind. Maybe I should read before I type.

[Joisey]

Nah it'll probably be:

SS-Stormtrooper
Cost 5
Defense 4/4
7/5/-
2/-/-
Some weird, situational SA that's grossly overcosted.

I just went off the Panzergrenadier template and applied it to our new SS friend. :)
Ah, C'mon! You KNOW the SS Stormtrooper is going to have the "Ruthless" SA too.

[Canuck_Captain]

If I had to guess...

Cost 7
Defense 4/4
12/6/-
3/-/-
Close Assault 8 or 9
Limited Range
SS Determination


theyd have to have the same def than the SSPG...
cost 6 or 7
def 5
12/8
3/-/-
close assault 7 or 8
maybe limited range for a lower pts cost
SS Determination - maybe but the haupman is good for that
ruthless - hopefully
thats how I see it but really close to Roberts

[henrym203]

I would not give the Stg44 equipped troop limited range. The 7.92X33 catridge was basically a standard mauser round shortened. Hence the name "Kurtz". The effective range has been quoted at being around 500-600meters, which is around 500-600 yards. I highly doubt you could ever see a human target with the naked eye at that distance anyways. It has very similar ballistics to the modern day 7.62X39 ak47 round and is very effective in the same way.

The reason the PPSh has limited range is because it fires a pistol catridge. They were normally equipped with a 90rd drum magazine which could be emptied in a few seconds. I think this was the reasoning behind the 10 dice at 0-1.

I would like to see something like this.

cost 6pts
5/5 def
infantry 9/7
tank -/-

Ruthless

[Arontje]

They should be far superior to the SS-Panzergrenadiers. SS-PGs were simply Waffen-SS soldiers who operated using mechanized tactics. SS-Stormtroopers were truly elite soldiers who were at the forefront of the fighting in the Eastern and Western fronts. I'll be pretty POed if they come in second place to SS-PGs in this game.

I agree with you, I hope they are better. I just stated they shouldnt be less then the current SS inf. Cause it wouldnt be an elite unit if it was.

I think def 5 for sure. And maybe fanatic and ruthless. As well as better anti inf stats. That would be cool.

[Autarch]

I'm thinking a laundry list of SAs that will bump up this units cost to 10 or 12...

[Zhukov]

Nah it'll probably be:

SS-Stormtrooper
Cost 5
Defense 4/4
7/5/-
2/-/-
Some weird, situational SA that's grossly overcosted.

I just went off the Panzergrenadier template and applied it to our new SS friend. :)
AAAAAAAAAAHHH! I see most limited range units as usally useless I need range. IF it is horriable then all have to make some kind of ryme about getting a set I case.

[Stojakovic]

Were there any estimated stats for the WW?

[Lotus]

Man...you just changed your avatar again. I saw the creepy clown just seconds ago. :p

[Stojakovic]

Man...you just changed your avatar again. I saw the creepy clown just seconds ago. :p

But it is what I do. I also change my location every time I change my avatar. I don't like the same avatar all the time. My limit is one week. See the links on my sig :D

[Lotus]

Hey...waittaminute...Freddy...that name is too familiar. :rolleyes:

[FSSF]

Wow...
The arms race is really heating up...
With the super Sherman with the 105 gun coming out, I guess they had no choice but to put out a new upgraded german elite just to keep up... Even if the SS-PG is already an unrealistic soldier unit... How strong can you make a soldier unit without being ridiculous?

[henrym203]

Wow...
The arms race is really heating up...
With the super Sherman with the 105 gun coming out, I guess they had no choice but to put out a new upgraded german elite just to keep up... Even if the SS-PG is already an unrealistic soldier unit... How strong can you make a soldier unit without being ridiculous?

maybe we will see an UberSoldaten from Wolfenstein....Haahahaha

def 10/10
15/12/9 soldier extended range 20
10/8/6 vehicle

Close assualt 50
superior camo
ruthless
immune to flamethrowers

[Canuck_Captain]

The SSPG are good but I dont think theyre uber...

Plus the 105 is crappy against tanks so it will die quickly anyways...

the SS Stormtrooper hopefully will be better than the SSPG but probably not to much better...and I hope they have those cool helmets too

[Joisey]

Wow...
The arms race is really heating up...
With the super Sherman with the 105 gun coming out, I guess they had no choice but to put out a new upgraded german elite just to keep up... Even if the SS-PG is already an unrealistic soldier unit... How strong can you make a soldier unit without being ridiculous?
Exactly why I think a defense of 6 is not so far fetched. Go look at the funeral dirges they are chanting for the SSPG over on the "They Did it Again" thread about how powerful the Sherman 105 is going to be.

The SS Stormtrooper needs a 6 defense just to survive in that environment.

[johnnyonthespot]

I'm sorry, but I still have yet to find a picture of this unit. Can someone post a link.... please???

[Avoll]

wonder if there will be a storm trooper officer also

[greyfox]

My guess:

Cost: 8
Move: 1
Defense: 5/5
A/I: 11/9/-
A/V: 3/-/-
Close Assault: 9
Hand-to-Hand: 12
Fanatic or SS Determination (or a new SA that allows movement of some sort if Disrupted)

My reasoning is that a Stormtrooper (from the German 'Sturm', meaning in this context Assault or Attack) would be optimised for close combat, both in maneuvering and firing.
Also, the Russian Grenadier is the first unit we have seen with both Close Assault and Hand-to-Hand and I think that WOTC will give the Germans a similar capability. And lastly, the STG 44 is a much more effective weapon than the Kar98, and that should be represented in the A/I rating, although an SA affecting firepower might be used instead. (I just got a chilling thought--an SS unit with Double Shot or All Guns Blazing--to represent the full-auto firepower of the STG-44. That would resolve the debate about SS-PG and the MG-42. And would also make all other German Infantry obsolete, much the same effect the STG 44 had on infantry weapons.)

[Mr_G]

I think it will be in the cost range of the mighty SE para.

[Hiro]

My guess:

Cost: 8
Move: 1
Defense: 5/5
A/I: 11/9/-
A/V: 3/-/-
Close Assault: 9
Hand-to-Hand: 12
Fanatic or SS Determination (or a new SA that allows movement of some sort if Disrupted)


I was thinking nearly the same thing, but it also had ruthless. I like the way you stink...think.

[fifleche]

I would like to see something like this.

cost 6pts
5/5 def
infantry 9/7
tank -/-

RuthlessHuh?

Basically you pay 1 pt more for -1/-1 AI, -2 AT and no "Close Assault" SA, if we compare that wish with the current SS-Pzgrenadier...

:confused:

[Avoll]

im thinking it will have
5 def
and
SS Determination or ruthless

[Arontje]

i hope both:P

[J.L.Robert]

I, on the other hand, am hoping that it DOESN'T get 5 Defense.

As the game grows, it would be ideal if the game made you think carefully about your infantry selections. However, if each successive piece is designed specifically to be superior to the previous one, all you wind up doing is rendering older figures obsolete.

The SSPG is has great cost/value. I do also feel that the SS assault troops do have some better stats. But I also would like it to be a consideration, not an automatic selection, for Axis builds.

My idea would be for the assault troops to have better firepower and mobility vs. the SSPG for the cost of range and defense, while maintaining a cost relatively close to that of the SSPG. That way, an Axis player has to carefully decide which option would be better for his army. Should a unit similar to my suggestion wind up with a 5 Defense, then the cost should go upwards to 9 or 10 points a unit.

I guess we'll all just have to wait until someone receives their shipment ahead of the release date, and opens up boosters.

[Remember-OWS-]

The training of the Stormtroopers should be the same as the SS-Panzergrenadier. Only mobility was a matter, and the SS-Panzergrenadier do not seem to be able to disembark from a Sdk 251, probably because they were to heavy loaded (As I see it).

[Imaclone76]

another awsome unit for germans (not a german player) if germans do get this unit with the defence of 6/6 f*#k me this will mean that the new sherman and soviet sniper will be the only things with a good chance of killing or disrupting this unit as infantry have trouble getting close enough to do anything especially if the germans have a few mg-40 teams backing them up. i agree with patrickWR they should be better units BUT give them a defence of 5/5 and give them maybe a couple of special rules, maybe mechanized tactics, close assault 12 & maybe limited range even these stats would make this unit scary in the right hands

[PatrickWR]

The training of the Stormtroopers should be the same as the SS-Panzergrenadier. Only mobility was a matter, and the SS-Panzergrenadier do not seem to be able to disembark from a Sdk 251, probably because they were to heavy loaded (As I see it).

I respectfully disagree here. German stormtroopers in the purest sense of the -- elite shock troops who formed the vanguard of assaults -- had been around since late WWI. True Panzergrenadier units didn't actually form until 1942, prior to that they were called Mechanized Infantry and the like. It was stormtroopers who charged all over France and Poland and fought in the opening months of Operation Barbarossa. The fact that the new unit is from the Waffen-SS should only add to their badass-ness.

[Pasalades]

Any examples of these Storm Trooper divisions in WWII?

[PatrickWR]

Any examples of these Storm Trooper divisions in WWII?

I understood stormtrooper to be a catch-all term for the elite vanguard formations of the Heer and Waffen-SS, just as 'panzergrenadier' came to represent troopers who rode around in a halftrack. A little snooping on the web shows that stormtroopers might better represent the pre-war paramilitary groups (the brownshirts, for one) who terrorized Germany as Hitler rose to power. Please correct me if I'm wrong -- I'm fairly certain you know more about this than I do.

Edit: The term stormtrooper seems like an informal title, the same way 'shock soldier' was used by the Soviets. Guess it was formal enough to get an AAM stat card. :D

[Autarch]

I'm thinking they may have some SA vs Fortifications, unless we also get a pioneer unit.

[Remember-OWS-]

I understood stormtrooper to be a catch-all term for the elite vanguard formations of the Heer and Waffen-SS, just as 'panzergrenadier' came to represent troopers who rode around in a halftrack. A little snooping on the web shows that stormtroopers might better represent the pre-war paramilitary groups (the Brownshirt, for one) who terrorized Germany as Hitler rose to power. Please correct me if I'm wrong -- I'm fairly certain you know more about this than I do.

Edit: The term stormtrooper seems like an informal title, the same way 'shock soldier' was used by the Soviets. Guess it was formal enough to get an AAM stat card. :D


I don't understand why you disagree with my statement!?!

I was pointing out that the Training involve for all branch of the SS was the utmost in weaponry and tactic.

SS-Panzergrenadier is a term that really lived in 1942, that I can agree.
For instance take a peek at this from the

1.SS-Panzer-Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler

The Leibstandarte units:

SS-Stabswache Berlin, 1933
SS-Sonderkommando Berlin, (Also, SS-Sonderkommando Zossen and Jüterbog), 1933
Adolf Hitler-Standarte, 1933
Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, 1933
Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler, 1934
Infanterie-Regiment Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler (mot.), 1938
SS-Division Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler, 1941
SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler, 1942
1.SS-Panzer-Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler, 1944

The origin of the Strom Trooper is the Brownshirt (in the early '20) they were call the SA (SturmAbteilung - Strom Troopers) at the time and the SS (Schutz-Staffel - defense coprs) were both para-military formations.

Ernst Röhm was the leader of the SA and was assassinated in 1934. Then, the complet structure of the SA (including the SS) had collapse and Himmler to command of the troops. He formed for ceremonial duty at first the SS Verfügungstruppen. They were armed SS Troops that grew slowly during the prewar years.

The Formation, in 1933 of Allgemein SS (General SS), the official designation of all SS member party, was divided in Branch.
Oberstgruppenfüuhrer Joseph Sepp Dietrich was to command of the 1. Panzer Division "Leibstandarte" SS Adlof Hitler, primally the Stabswach (Special armed detachment) mixed with the best of the best from the SS Verfügungstruppen The first real SS military formation, one of the Branch.

The other one, the one that was the most infamous is the SS Totenkpfverbände (SS Death's Head detachments). The first to command was SS Standartenführer Theodor Eicke. They were the ones taking care of the concentration camps. They did provided firing Squad but were remove from the command of the Allgemeine SS and expanded in size.

The SS Verfügungstruppen (That became later the 2.SS-Panzer-Division Das Reich )saw combat in Poland as of the LSSAH.
After the campaign they were both transformed into a reinforced motorized regiment.
In 1940 the name Waffen-SS ( Armed Schutzstaffel) became official for the designation of SS combat troops.

So where does that leaves us!!!

The Stromtroopers (SA), transformed into the SS Verfügungstruppen division did take part in in the Campaigns in the West against the Low Countries and France in 1940. During the period after the fall of France, the Division was stationed in France preparing for the invasion of England. The Division, now called Reich was moved to Roumania to take part in the invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece in March of 1941.

So what should we all be thinking of the "Storm Troopers" from WOTC A/H.
Are they better than the SS-Panzergrenadier or not. If the SS-Panzergrenadier are to be seen in 1940, are the S-T a 1939 or a prior formation with, to the extent a lesser quality weapon equipped formation.

[scorpnoire]

To clear this a bit from my knowledge:

The original Storm Trooper where formed as a new tactical unit in the first World War (Stoßtruppen: shock troops).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmtruppen (german article)

Later the term stayed for troops still using this tactics, but was not necessary linked to the SA or SS. The SA and its former sub-branch SS where organisationally divided in several storm linked words, but not because they consisted of the original storm trooper.
Also the term SA (Sturmabteilung) would have been better translated with storm division to not confuse it with the shock troops!

An SS-Stormtrooper has the term SS not without a cause. This time we have an SS member trained in the storm trooper tactics. Still obey: SA and storm trooper as shock trooper are not the same, except translated lazy or wrong!


To get back to the topic:
I suppose they get either one or more S.A. like
fanatic, like the SS-Hauptsturmführer,
Angriff!, like the Oberleutnant,
Tally Ho!, like the british captain,
ruthless, like the SS-PGs or
hard charger, like the Teletrooper
or something similar,
recieve at least the same dice and def like a SS-PG
but will cost some more.


Gruß,
Markus

[Edit: clearing some terms less confusing]

[Pasalades]

Ok. I"ve been sound asleep for the last eight hours. Getting up before going to work I'll be quick. Remember -OWS- is right as far as I know. Storm Trooper as it applies to WWII is really just a catch-all term for SS units in general. Mostly the term Storm Trooper refers to two things. 1) Trench Clearing soldiers in WWI and 2)Brown Shirted ruffians from the inter-war period. SS Units that served in the army and fought on the front lines (I think there were nine) all were Panzer Grenadiers and comformed to Whermacht doctrine on mechanized infantry organization. They got the pick of the litter when it came to support, vehicles, supply, ect. IMHO, the SS-Storm Trooper unit is at best redundant refering to the exact same thing as a SS-Panzergrenadier or it is anachronistic refering to units it clearly could not be from earlier time periods. My personal thoughts are that this unit is ahistorical and may be the first truly make believe unit in the game. The Soviets had armies and divisions that were actually label with the 'shock' descriptor, Germany never used the 'Storm Trooper' or 'Sturm Truppen' descriptor for any of its military units in WWII. I could be wrong, but in all my years of research I have yet to see it.

[PatrickWR]

Germany never used the 'Storm Trooper' or 'Sturm Truppen' descriptor for any of its military units in WWII. I could be wrong, but in all my years of research I have yet to see it.

This makes sense. Thanks Pasalades and OWS for clearing this up.

Here's a thought: maybe they were thinking of the German Pioneer unit when they conceived of the Stormtrooper...y'know, urban combat specialist, etc? That would be an easy mistake to make, methinks.

Or it could just be that WOTC is trying to fit a Stormtrooper unit into every minis game they produce. :D

[Joisey]

I'm expecting the storm trooper to have dice comparable to the Russian PPSh. Being SS, it'll have fancier SA's.

It may also be intended, at the same time, to be a counter to the S.E.

[4242david4242]

It may also be intended, at the same time, to be a counter to the S.E.

I thought that's what the SS-PG is.

[J.L.Robert]

Or it could just be that WOTC is trying to fit a Stormtrooper unit into every minis game they produce. :D

Imagine General Veers leading a charge of SS troops...or SS-truppen piling out of an AT-AT.

:p

[Teutonic_Knight]

With a title like "Contested Skies" you would think Germany would finally get their Fallschirmjäger (elite paratroopers, think scenario Monte Cassino). This supposedly (no image seen yet) new SS Stormtrooper unit doesn't make sense to me. The SS Panzergrenadiers were already considered crack units in their time. Hope it won't get more ridiculous than this, like the introduction of a Hero of the Soviet Union unit.

[scorpnoire]

Moin!

...
Mostly the term Storm Trooper refers to two things. 1) Trench Clearing soldiers in WWI and 2)Brown Shirted ruffians from the inter-war period.


I have to intervene here ;).
The "Braunhemden" (brown shirts) where never called storm trooper or such.
As I stated b4, "SA" is better translated storm divison although not related or refering to the tactical designation storm or shock trooper here.

...
Germany never used the 'Storm Trooper' or 'Sturm Truppen' descriptor for any of its military units in WWII. I could be wrong, but in all my years of research I have yet to see it.

You are correct here. The storm trooper designation was just cause of the tactical purpose. Damn, I wish I would be better in explaining things in english =(.

[Pasalades]

I concede the first point. I made my own over generalization after making the same assertion of WotC.

[scorpnoire]

Apology accepted, Captain Needer *heavy breathing while ordering some storm trooper over to the hangar bay* ;). Na, I also learn new things here everyday.

After several PM I just fear the storm trooper as translation for the Sturmabteilung is not your, but a common translation error. I'd like to know its origins anyways.
If I am right with my fear here, WotC is also haunted by this and the the SS-Stormtrooper will be something alike and all the fears of a competetive german infantery are not necessary. Oh, just let's hope for the best.

Gruß,
Markus =)

[Arontje]

Apology accepted, Captain Needer


ehhh....

Its Captain Needa. :D

[scorpnoire]

ehhh....

Its Captain Needa. :D

...like this for example, I learned today ;).