Set III Jagdtiger Discussion

[spacepope]

On reasonable information, I think we can expect the Jagdtiger to appear in Set III. Only about 80 were produced before the end of the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdtiger

Feel free to speculate on the statistics, including wildly unbalanced and a-historical SAs.

Side-bar-
Personally, I'm a little discouraged by the obession with eclectic German AFV. The Flamingo, Whirbelwind and Jagdtiger are just a couple of examples. In each release, slots are precious commodoties, so many more common units are being ignored in favor of exotic and marginal units.

I'm also totally fed up with the duplicity of units. Four Shermans in three releases. Three German Panzergrenadiers (two of which are almost identical). It's just silly. Once again, limited space is being wasted on slots for unnecessary units.

[Cruizin2000]

I thought that the Jagdtiger was coming out in Set IV.

C2000

[FSSF]

The Jagdtiger was officially announced as part of set IV that will come out in June along with canadians, spitfire, tank traps, etc... It's on the official website.

[Joisey]

Yep, Set IV.

The only thing I have speculated on is the cost, which I expect to be near 100 points.

I have read that the Jagdtiger's superstructure armor was so thick, only a 5" naval gun could penetrate it. The sucker was slow: Expect a speed of 2 for sure. This unit will probably be the first to have a short range AV of 20, and a long range dice that equals or exceeds the Nashorn's.

[Canuck_Captain]

D-Day Booster Pack

The assault on Fortress Europe begins with D-Day. Highlighting units and nations involved in Operation Overlord – including the debut of Canadian troops – D-Day features the introduction of battlefield obstacles: immobile, non nation-specific units like pillboxes and tank traps that add to the realism of game play. Fan requested favorites like the Supermarine Spitfire and Jagdtiger also roar into action

I cant wait for Canadians and pillboxes and everything thats coming out in Set 4

[fifleche]

Can't wait for Canadians, non nation-specific fortifications, and the Spit!

The Jagdtiger, I wasn't even aware it was a "fan requested favorite" :confused:

I would have much more liked something useful, like the Pz38(t), for example, than another overcosted monstruosity with an abysmal mobility, a defense of 9/3 an AT attack of 20/18/16 and AI 6/6/4 with "extended range 417" ... Ah well, it could have been worse... A Sherman variant or a Flamethrower tank, anyone?

[FSSF]

I agree with you fifleche.
The Jagdtiger will just be another overpriced unit nobody can use in regular games.

[marineair]

Yeah, I don't remember anyone drooling over that one, either. And it was definitely going to be part of Set IV, not Set III. Personally, I'm not losing any sleep over it; it's not a mini I'll be using that often.

[fifleche]

I mean, the Jagdpanther is supposed to be the best tank hunter there was (at least on the german side), and already nobody uses it...

[Stojakovic]

I mean, the Jagdpanther is supposed to be the best tank hunter there was (at least on the german side), and already nobody uses it...

I use it a lot. I use it more than the King Tiger. But not more than the Beautiful Tiger I :D

[Mr_G]

I mean, the Jagdpanther is supposed to be the best tank hunter there was (at least on the german side), and already nobody uses it...

I use it.
I was looking for a tank hunter that doesn't cost me 3/4ths of my army, I've used the Nashorn and the Jagdpanther... and the Jagdpanther is waaayy better. I think it's well worth it's points for a German unit. I've never lost a game with it while loosing all my games with the Nashorn.

[Blighty]

I would rather see a Marder, Hetzer or Jagdpanzer IV first.

[RobertVella]

Yeah I defintely want to see Marders which were used much earlier in the war.

[Lotus]

I love the Jagpanther. I can play it now that my kid killed a Tiger.

And I STILL say Hazaah!

(Sick of playing tigers)

[Arontje]

Unit: Jagdtiger
Vehicle: Tank destroyer
Points: 73
Year: 1945
Speed: 3
Defense: 7/5

AI: 6/5/4
AV: 21/17/15

No Turret: This unit can attack Vehicles only if they are in front of this unit.
Extended Range 12: This unit's long range against Vehicles is 5-X hexes.
Superior Armor 2: An attack must beat this unit's defense by X or more in order to score two hits against it.


This is my guess, and I think it will be pretty close to whats it gonna be. It is a vehicle terminator, but the King Tiger is 2 points cheape for better armor and better AI and its got a turret. So this thing comes with a prize, lesser AI no turret en less armor then king tiger.

[NEVjr]

Yep, Set IV.

The only thing I have speculated on is the cost, which I expect to be near 100 points.

I have read that the Jagdtiger's superstructure armor was so thick, only a 5" naval gun could penetrate it. The sucker was slow: Expect a speed of 2 for sure. This unit will probably be the first to have a short range AV of 20, and a long range dice that equals or exceeds the Nashorn's.

by the time your firing 5" guns at something, it doesnt matter if it penetrates, the explosive force will likely kill the crew or set off the ammo.

also keep in mind that it is carrying a 5" gun itself, which is slow to reload and carries very limited ammo

i seen a picture of a king tiger the soviets captured, and they hit it with a 152mm HE round on the front plate. it didnt technically penetrate, but it heated the front plate to the point that it over tempered and began to shatter

[Joisey]

Unit: Jagdtiger
Vehicle: Tank destroyer
Points: 73
Year: 1945
Speed: 3
Defense: 7/5

AI: 6/5/4
AV: 21/17/15

No Turret: This unit can attack Vehicles only if they are in front of this unit.
Extended Range 12: This unit's long range against Vehicles is 5-X hexes.
Superior Armor 2: An attack must beat this unit's defense by X or more in order to score two hits against it.


This is my guess, and I think it will be pretty close to whats it gonna be. It is a vehicle terminator, but the King Tiger is 2 points cheape for better armor and better AI and its got a turret. So this thing comes with a prize, lesser AI no turret en less armor then king tiger.
The Jagdtiger is based on the King Tiger chassis. The rear defense will be a six, and with the massive superstructure of the Jagdtiger, the front defense should be at least a 9, if not better. I'd make it a 10, myself.

And one of those "Murphy's Laws" things I've noticed lately: Whatever I think a German unit should/will cost, AH is always five points higher.

[fifleche]

And one of those "Murphy's Laws" things I've noticed lately: Whatever I think a German unit should/will cost, AH is always five points higher.Okay... So let's try this: You said "near 100", so I'll assume 99, which should give us the Jagdtiger at 104! :D

[Joisey]

I use it.
I was looking for a tank hunter that doesn't cost me 3/4ths of my army, I've used the Nashorn and the Jagdpanther... and the Jagdpanther is waaayy better. I think it's well worth it's points for a German unit. I've never lost a game with it while loosing all my games with the Nashorn.
I kicked derriere this weekend using 2 Nashorns in a 250 pt. build. It was six maps of hilly terrain. My opponent repeatedly tried to get my nashies with paratroopers, but I had Kar's and a couple of MG-42's guarding them.

I think if I win big again with the Nashorns, my gaming group is going to ban me from playing them. Ha Ha!

[Joisey]

Okay... So let's try this: You said "near 100", so I'll assume 99, which should give us the Jagdtiger at 104! :D
One things for sure: the Jagdtiger ain't gonna cost 73 points, I guarantee! That's way, way too cheap and I'll bet you money on it. I said 100 points, so figure AH will make it 105. Just like I said the Puma armored car would be 18 and they make it a disgustingly high 23 (more than a sherman!!!).

[FSSF]

My guess is that movement on Jagdtiger will be 2.
It was built on the same chassis as the King Tiger, used the same engine but weight a lot more (don't have the stats underhand). Descriptions I've read tells it moved much slower than the King Tiger (who wasn't a speed demaon to start with).

[Blighty]

And there were very few bridges that could support it - a negative SA that it can't cross them would make some maps interesting to say the least!

[NorthernRommel]

One things for sure: the Jagdtiger ain't gonna cost 73 points, I guarantee! That's way, way too cheap and I'll bet you money on it. I said 100 points, so figure AH will make it 105. Just like I said the Puma armored car would be 18 and they make it a disgustingly high 23 (more than a sherman!!!).

Or 101 so that it dont fit in a regular 100 point game.

But funny I was gonna say 13 or 15 for the Puma like the Pzkw III -
but I guess they make it 10 point higher then I think :D

[Arontje]

The Jagdtiger is based on the King Tiger chassis. The rear defense will be a six, and with the massive superstructure of the Jagdtiger, the front defense should be at least a 9, if not better. I'd make it a 10, myself.

And one of those "Murphy's Laws" things I've noticed lately: Whatever I think a German unit should/will cost, AH is always five points higher.

I truly think its almost as I have said. They dont compare it to all the things you say, just for play and to the other jagdtank, the jagdpanther.

[Joisey]

My guess is that movement on Jagdtiger will be 2.
It was built on the same chassis as the King Tiger, used the same engine but weight a lot more (don't have the stats underhand). Descriptions I've read tells it moved much slower than the King Tiger (who wasn't a speed demaon to start with).
Agreed! Speed 2 definitely.

Guess we'll find out for sure in June, Arontie.

[PatrickWR]

One things for sure: the Jagdtiger ain't gonna cost 73 points, I guarantee! That's way, way too cheap and I'll bet you money on it. I said 100 points, so figure AH will make it 105. Just like I said the Puma armored car would be 18 and they make it a disgustingly high 23 (more than a sherman!!!).

Now let's think about this guys. As long as 100 points is the benchmark for a standard scenario, I highly doubt WOTC/AH will release a vehicle that is more than 100 points. Personally, I don't even think the Jagdtiger will cost more than a King Tiger. It's historical performance may have been better but mark my words: its game performance will be castrated to keep its cost down. ;)

[EricM 2404]

80 points thats my guess

[Joisey]

Now let's think about this guys. As long as 100 points is the benchmark for a standard scenario, I highly doubt WOTC/AH will release a vehicle that is more than 100 points. Personally, I don't even think the Jagdtiger will cost more than a King Tiger. It's historical performance may have been better but mark my words: its game performance will be castrated to keep its cost down. ;)
It's negatives will/should include a speed of two and even less of an AI stat than the standard German armor (one bow MG in a vehicle that moves ponderously slow=easily avoided by infantry), say a 5/5/4.

Maybe they'll give it the Jagdpanther treatment. Eight points higher than the base tank. That'll make it 79...plus the standard AH overcost factor, add another 5 gratuitious points....so, figure 84. But that assumes they won't do it's thick armor justice on the defense rating, or waterdown it's AFV stats from what they should be (The Jagdtiger ought to be able to hole any other tank at 800 meters). The historic gunnery power and impenetrable armor would boost it into the 90's.

[dudemaestro]

This thing should be damned neer immobile. It was alot slower then any other AFV and was easly avoided assuming you knew where it was. I am thinking this thing should have to sit a turn before it shoots, but be pretty close to impregnable, having both S.A.3 + HM maybe?

The real question is "When are they gunna make the Maus Super Heavy Tank?"
I mean, hell, if they are gunna make this redicules thing why not go all the way?

[Remember-OWS-]

My guess is that movement on Jagdtiger will be 2.
It was built on the same chassis as the King Tiger, used the same engine but weight a lot more (don't have the stats underhand). Descriptions I've read tells it moved much slower than the King Tiger (who wasn't a speed demaon to start with).

Jagdtiger spec. (H version) 88 built (DP, not all of them saw combat)

Road Speed : 35 Kilometers per Hour
Rough Speed : 10 Kilometers per Hour
Road Range: 100 Kilometers
Off-Road Range: 70 Kilometers
Main Gun : 128mm PaK 44 L / 55
Secondary Weapons : 1x 7.92mm MG34 (Bow - 2700 rounds)
1x 7.92mm MG42 (Loose - 600 rounds)

Length : 10.5 meters
Height : 2.95 meters
Width : 3.77 meters
Weight : 71700 kilograms


Hull Front (Upper) : 250mm @ 75°
Hull Front (Lower) : 100mm @ 40° & 150mm @ 40°
Hull Sides (Upper) : 80mm @ 65°
Hull Sides (Lower) : 80mm @ 85°
Hull Rear : 80mm @ 82°
Hull Top : 40mm @ 0°
Hull Bottom : 25mm - 40mm @ 0°
Turret Front : --
Turret Mantlet : 100mm @ Saukopf
__________________________-
Tiger II

Road Speed : 38 Kilometers per Hour
Rough Speed : 20 Kilometers per Hour
Road Range: 170 Kilometers
Off-Road Range: 120 Kilometers

Length : 10.28 meters
Height : 3.09 meters
Width : 3.76 meters
Weight : 70000 kilograms

Main Gun : 88mm Kw.K.43 L / 71
Secondary Weapons : 1x 7.92 mm MG34 (Coaxial - 2925 rounds)
1x 7.92 mm MG34 (Bow - 2925 rounds)

Hull Front (Upper) : 150mm @ 40°
Hull Front (Lower) : 100mm @ 40°
Hull Sides (Upper) : 80mm @ 65°
Hull Sides (Lower) : 80mm @ 90°
Hull Rear : 80mm @ 60°
Hull Top : 40mm @ 0°
Hull Bottom : 25mm - 40mm @ 0°
Turret Front : 180mm @ 81°
Turret Mantlet : 100mm @ Saukopf
Turret Sides : 80mm @ 69°
Turret Rear : 80mm @ 69°
Turret Top : 40mm @ 0° - 12°

[NEVjr]

i would keep the same defence as the king tiger, adding 1 to the front seems a bit to strong compaired to the king tiger, and give it speed 2

[RobertVella]

The Jadgtiger should also be allowed to appear in 1944, when it started to reach the front. Joisey's stats are spot on and the speed should be 2. My guess on cost would be 78.

[Porter]

When discussing the Jadgtiger remeber that nearly half of the production was delivered with the relatively puny 88mm gun rather than the spec called for 128mm due to production delays. As well when faced with its weight problem, designers eliminated one set of bogey wheels to reduce the weight, making later models slightly more agile than the early ones. (not that it made much difference).

Some were made avaialbe for the Battle of the Bulge (Dec 1944) however, all of them were left behind in the initial thrust and almost all of of them did not engage until days after.

[Arontje]

One thing most people forgot to see when predicting units....

If the first set was out but there was no panzer 4, then most people will make it a bit better then it turned out to be. Many people look at historical facts. While that is very good of course, AH does not only look at the facts, cause if they did many units would have been a bit different.

But I challenge you all to make the full stats of the unit, not only year or speed or armor, make the full stats and we will see in june who is closest to it...

Only thing I didnt know was wheter it would be 1944 or 1945, I will do 1944 then, in regards to the battle of the bulge.

Unit: Jagdtiger
Vehicle: Tank destroyer
Points: 73
Year: 1944
Speed: 3
Defense: 7/5

AI: 6/5/4
AV: 21/17/15

No Turret: This unit can attack Vehicles only if they are in front of this unit.
Extended Range 12: This unit's long range against Vehicles is 5-X hexes.
Superior Armor 2: An attack must beat this unit's defense by X or more in order to score two hits against it.

[Danyel Phelps]

The Jagdtiger would have an AV value less than, or equal to, the Nashorn/King Tiger/Jagdpanther at all ranges except long. The Jagdtiger was nothing super.

[Remember-OWS-]

Like Joisey pointed out, the armor should be 9/6 because the front had got more plate added to it.
Superior Armor 2 and extended range 12 or even 14.

84 pts minimum for the beast.

[Danyel Phelps]

If you're refering to field modifications, those don't count. If they did, many of the past tanks would have had a much heavier defense including the M4A1 and Panther.

[Remember-OWS-]

Your are probably bette in math then me and your knowledge of plating too, but a

Hull Front (Upper) : 250mm @ 75°
Hull Front (Lower) : 100mm @ 40° & 150mm @ 40°

Compare to the Tiger II


Hull Front (Upper) : 150mm @ 40°
Hull Front (Lower) : 100mm @ 40°

Should count a little no!?!

[Danyel Phelps]

I misunderstood when you said that the plate had more added on to it. You are correct.

[Joisey]

The fact that half shipped with an inferior nonspec gun does throw a curve ball into the guesstimating. But, I feel confident that AH's mini will be the macho version with the 128mm gun. I would think that the 128mm gun would outperform the Nashorn's 88mm.

You could argue that it's rate of fire should only be every other turn, but the same facts were present with the IS-2, but AH didn't do that to the IS-2, so I don't think they'll do it to the Jagdtiger either.

I keep thinking how AH says they are putting out the Jagdtiger due to "fan demand". If true, then they will go with the beefier version to "please the fans". So, I'm expecting a Jagdtiger with the 128mm gun. Whatever else the Jagdtiger's drawbacks, that 128mm gun ought to have some sweet, sweet long range stats.

[PatrickWR]

I keep thinking how AH says they are putting out the Jagdtiger due to "fan demand". If true, then they will go with the beefier version to "please the fans". So, I'm expecting a Jagdtiger with the 128mm gun. Whatever else the Jagdtiger's drawbacks, that 128mm gun ought to have some sweet, sweet long range stats.

That little tidbit does sound enticing. I wonder if it'll get a Nashorn-level Extended Range? 16? 18?