Sprucing up lame tech advances/weapons

[axis_roll]

Someone early had mentioned that in the past, some dud weapons were jet power and super subs.

Someone also added that the new dud was combined arms.

I have to agree with both statements. So I though about how to rectify these weak weapons. I hit upon the idea of making them more powerful by allowing your ally country to also get that weapon if you acquire that tech. So if Japan were to acquire combined arms, germany would ALSO have that tech.

If the allies get one of these dud weapons, they would have to choose one other country (not both of their allies) who would also get that tech.

You can use this method on whatever you decide is a dud weapon.

Thoughts?

[DocD]

Hey Axisroll. I get your grift but I disagree with techs actually being duds. I don't think enough people have spent the time to invest in jet power to know if it is a dud...as far as supersub or combined arms...I don't believe many on the forum feel that it is. Of course I could be wrong and I'm sure that will be pointed out here soon by future posters.

Has anyone spent the money and effort to invest in jet power in turn 1? I admit I havent', but I've never been that interested in defensive weapons, because like most I like to blow things up with awesome firepower (ie HB).
Jet power could really put the hurt on some invader if it is done correctly. Unfortunately, AandA is an attack driven game and few think of defense until it is to late. Ok...that's DocD's 2 cents.

[ March 25, 2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: DocD ]

[Napalm]

I think I would rather match a sucky tech with a good NA and a good tech with a sucky NA. So when you roll for a tech you also get a NA. For example, if Russia wants Russian Winter they will have to roll for super subs or something. Just set it up to where you at least get something usefull for whatever tech you roll.

[Zocker]

Hello,

Here my ideas to A&A Technology:

Super Subs:
Submarines Attack with 3.
Submarines are 1 IPC cheaper and cost 7

Sneaky Subs:
Submarines can Move 3
DD dont stop Submarines abilitys

Fast Destroyer:
Destroyer move 3
Destroyer are 2 IPC cheaper and cost 10

Bigger Battleship
Battleships Attack and Defends with 5 Landing Fire is also 5

Bigger CV:
CV can handle 3 Fighter

Liberts ships:
Transporter are 1 IPS cheaper.

Maritim Coordination:
Sea Fleet can move through enemy Fleets

Real Blitzkrieg.
Tanks can move through enemy Areas.

Heavy Tanks:
Tanks attack in the first Round with 4.
The second Round and following Tanks attack with 3. Defend with 3
(to powerful?)

Heavys Tank Destroyers.
Tank defend in the first round with 4.
The second Round and following Tank defends with 3. Attack with 3.
(to powerful?)

Rocket Artillery:
Artillery defend in the first Round with 3.
In the second and following Round with 2.
Attack with 2.
(or in attack ?)

Full Attack:
Enemy Infantry defend in the first Round with 2. In the second Round an following with 1.

Jabo:
Fighter attack in Land Area with 4.

Torpedo Fighter:
Fighter attack in Sea Area with 4.

Economic Fighter:
Fighter defend with 5
Fighter cost 9 IPC.

Jet Fighter:
In the Anti Air Phase every own Fighter throw on Dice. Every one make one Hit on enemy Air units.
The Fighter fight than normal again in this Round.

New Bomber:
Bomber defend with 3.

Synergy:
Dice for Technology cost 4 IPC

Mass Development:
You can Develop Technology for more than 1 Technology in a Round.

Train:
You Infantry, Art and Tank can move in the Non Combat move double

Production:
Every Round you can Produce 1 Tank for 4 and 1 Arty for 3.

Propaganda:
Every Round you get 1 Infantry free in your Capitol.

Bank system:
Money you have at the begin of the Round and you dont Tech or Buy Units you get 5% :

Volunteer Worker:
The number of mobilize is doppelt.(*2)

See also my thread :AA-Units and SBR from March,15

Rainer Korzendörfer

.

[DY]

Here is why Jet Power sucks:

Even with 6 fighters on the board, a 20 IPC investment in dice yeilds you a 52% chance of increasing each fighter's defense power by 1 pip. 0 pips in offense and 0 extra casualties to take.

A 20 IPC investment could give you a 100% chance of acquiring 2 new fighters, giving you 8 defensive pips, 6 offensive pips and 2 extra casualties to take.

The only time it could be good is if you have several fighters are in an Allies capital, which you can't mobilise any of your units in this turn and which is in danger of falling (and in the scenario that a few extra pips of defense will swing the battle).

[DocD]

Originally posted by DY:
Here is why Jet Power sucks:

Even with 6 fighters on the board, a 20 IPC investment in dice yeilds you a 52% chance of increasing each fighter's defense power by 1 pip. 0 pips in offense and 0 extra casualties to take.

A 20 IPC investment could give you a 100% chance of acquiring 2 new fighters, giving you 8 defensive pips, 6 offensive pips and 2 extra casualties to take.Does anybody remember the "historical value" of jet power? Didn't do much because it came to the Germans too late. Again...how many of us have honestly invested in jet power? You mistakenly pointed out that jet power gives no offensive pips...actually they do, 3 of them. I say again no wants a defensive tech (unless it's that cool defensive shield the aliens had in Independence Day) in an attack driven game.

[DY]

Originally posted by DocD:


Does anybody remember the "historical value" of jet power? You mistakenly pointed out that jet power gives no offensive pips...actually they do, 3 of them. WTF? How does Jet Power give you any offensive pips? The fighters you have on the board already, keep their 3 pips but don't gain any at all. Buying more fighters instead of rolling for jets is on average far superior.

[DocD]

Ok Dy, maybe I was using that fuzzy math...My most humble apology... jets give no pips on offense.
But what if you had jet power and THEN BOUGHT MORE FIGHTERS. Who now has the advantage? The player who had no jet power and a shiny new plane or the player who had jet power and a shiny new plane? Of course you have to make an intial investment that is going to cost but over time that investment could show some profit. Now I haven't applied my fuzzy math to this next statement but I'm going to venture out, And say having jet power and buying more fighters is on average far superior than not having jet power and buying more fighters. :rolleyes:

[ March 29, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: DocD ]

[Juggernaut]

Well put!

[Wyldman]

Actually it is a myth that Hitler delayed the Me262 program. The Me262 was delayed by unreliable engines and Allied bombings. The Me262 was designed as a fighter-bomber from the beginning.

[DY]

Originally posted by Wyldman:
Actually it is a myth that Hitler delayed the Me262 program. The Me262 was delayed by unreliable engines and Allied bombings. The Me262 was designed as a fighter-bomber from the beginning.What's your source for that?

What you are saying is at least partially correct, but claiming Hitler had no part in delaying the Me 262 program contradicts everything I've read and or seen on the matter.

[ March 29, 2004, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: DY ]

[DocD]

DY , we once again agree. So I believe jet power is ok and you don't, water underthebridge I say. We have found agreement in what Wyldman wrote. I too would like to know his source.

Hey wyldman if you are reading I don't disagree with you, I just would like to know the source of your information. You could be correct...I don't know...hell I was just a junior member until today.

[DY]

Originally posted by DocD:
DY , we once again agree. So I believe jet power is ok and you don't, water underthebridge I say. We have found agreement in what Wyldman wrote. I too would like to know his source.
Sorry for any confusion, but I don't think Jet Power is amazingly bad, I just think that there are better ways to spend your precious IPCs.

I'll say it again, given that 4 dice @ 20 IPCs only gives you a 52% chance of +1 pips per fighter, when the same amount (20 IPCs) could buy 2 additional fighters (with no random 48% chance of not being able to mobilise those fighters) which give you +6 offensive pips and +8 defensive pips and 2 extra unita to take as casualties.

Also when you consider that you could invest your technology dice in acquiring Heavy Bombers, Rockets or Long Range Aircraft, I think Jet Power is not a strong option.

[DocD]

Oh yeah Grog, I knew most of that. Thanks for filling in the blank parts I didn't. smile.gif

[Wyldman]

"The Last Year of the Luftwaffe" - by Alfred Price

"Fighters of the Luftwaffe" –Joachim Dressel and Manfred Griehl

I have another book, but can't remember which book in my library.

Also do a search on google: of "me262 hitler myth". Lots of contradictory info.

[DocD]

Originally posted by Wyldman:
"The Last Year of the Luftwaffe" - by Alfred Price

"Fighters of the Luftwaffe" –Joachim Dressel and Manfred Griehl

I have another book, but can't remember which book in my library.

Also do a search on google: of "me262 hitler myth". Lots of contradictory info.Thanks Wildman..I'm heading to the library tommorrow.

[Drax Kramer]

The only adjustments needed to turn jet interceptor into the jet fighter bomber were bomb racks. Hitler "interference" with the deployment of Me 262s is indeed a myth.

In addition, in early 1944, Germany did not lack fighters to fight Allied bombers, but Luftwaffe indeed was desperate to have a plane capable of penetrating Allied fighter umbrella and hit the landing troops.

The defense against Allied invasion was a primary strategic goal of Germany in 1944 and doing everything possible in order to have an attack aircraft was right thing to do.

As events unfolded, Me 262 was doomed to be late regardless of its intended role and Germans did not have time to train the pilots to operate it adequately.

From the historical point of view, no power managed to develop jet power in A&A terms.

Drax

[gamecubedude00]

:eek: :confused: the only techs i use are combined bombardment (a really kickass tech, if i do say so myself) as it makes, for example, 3 destroyers (costing 36, half the cost of 3 BSs) 1/8 chance to all hit, while it takes 3 BSs (costing 72, twice as much as the destroyers) 3/10 chance to all hit, which, if you think about it, is a poor deal compared to the halved price of 3 destroyers. (please correct me if im wrong on the math). i use combined bombardment for US and Britian (for russia its useless).

also, i use rockets, as it can cause hell if in german hands.

[DocD]

Originally posted by DY:
"Sorry for any confusion, but I don't think Jet Power is amazingly bad, I just think that there are better ways to spend your precious IPCs.

I'll say it again, given that 4 dice @ 20 IPCs only gives you a 52% chance of +1 pips per fighter, when the same amount (20 IPCs) could buy 2 additional fighters (with no random 48% chance of not being able to mobilise those fighters) which give you +6 offensive pips and +8 defensive pips and 2 extra unita to take as casualties.

Also when you consider that you could invest your technology dice in acquiring Heavy Bombers, Rockets or Long Range Aircraft, I think Jet Power is not a strong option."

No confusion Dy...and I understand your point...IPC's are hard enough to comeby...who wants to waste them. I just think that if you could get Jet power early, it could be a factor.

[ March 29, 2004, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: DocD ]

[ButchOHare1]

Jets will be crucial for Japan to throw for when USA is gearing up to retake the 8th or 9th Victory City held by Germany, and the only way Japan can help Germany hold is landing planes.

[Gorak]

Sounds pretty snappy

[DocD]

Originally posted by GROGnads:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ButchOHare1:
Jets will be crucial for Japan to throw for when USA is gearing up to retake the 8th or 9th Victory City held by Germany, and the only way Japan can help Germany hold is landing planes.All righty, you can either thank or blame DocD for making me 'dig' out my NOVA rules for this one. As I was 'researching' the 'A-Bomb' rules for him, I happened across this little 'nugget' about the 'Jets'-Tech. "(14.13) JETS-Fighters belonging to a player who has the JET capability are NOT affected by enemy anti-aircraft first shot attacks."

Now, what do you think about that as another part of the 'Jets'-Tech? ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Wow Grog!! Now that's a Weapon's Development you can sink your teeth into! Wonder why they axed in the MB version. It makes jets look alot more attractive to research but not too supreme...like most think HB's are. Wow...I might use that little nugget and see how it works out in my nextgame. Thanks :D