Competitive Discussion - Elite Pnzr 4

[dredlox]

Hey guys, wanted to get some competitive feedback on the Elite Pnzr 4. I personally think this is a really hot unit.

I ran some numbers and I came up with about this, factoring in crack shot

9+/9+/8
14/13/12

Is that about what you all got? That is huge, if you ask me.

At 18 points they can trade with a sherman at long range, and attack up the curve. A couple should be able to take on a croc, meanwhile those AI stats are massive.

I am worried about p51s and moreso Sturmovik (that thing is big), so here is what I (along with extended bud Crash Beedo) have

PANZER IV'S
54 Elite Panzer IVD x3
19 Wirbelwind
25 SS-Panzergrenadier x4
07 SS-Hauptsturmführer
100 points

I know the always knowledge Doctor Cornelius had one, a little different, but i don't like the WE sniper. Eagles make that guy look like a fool. This team will be a monster against the new buff infantry, have some decent AA defense, and can trade little elites for bigger Allied Vehicles. Yeah, the germans trading little armor on a sherman, how's that for a change?

The pgs are objective control as my vehicles are very very close assaultable. They should be able to get close with the vehicles raking any opposing infantry with those crazy AI stats.

What do you guys think? Looking for a little serious talk, if that is ok.

[Mr_G]

Played a few games with this little bugger. It's lightly armored, so you must count for cover rolls,, but it can take on medium armor without impunity, and even some heavy armor (eg: soviet tanks) if given the chance.

Their armor is paper thin agains medium to heavy tanks, so fielding 2 or more is definately a good idea.

[Colonel_Coo]

A good solid head shot from a Sniper would disable any Soviet armor and allow a 3 unit rush on target.

Against an IS-2, the IS-2 should die as soon as gang-fire occurs.

Equal points but the German will have only 1 unit disrupt or die from the counterfire of the IS-2.

[Kaufschtick]

Originally Posted by Colonel_Coo

A good solid head shot from a Sniper would disable any Soviet armor and allow a 3 unit rush on target.

Against an IS-2, the IS-2 should die as soon as gang-fire occurs.

Equal points but the German will have only 1 unit disrupt or die from the counterfire of the IS-2.

This is a very good strat. I ran into it quite unawares one time. The "Head Shot" is brutal when used in that fashion. Scratch one enemy armor unit!

[Canuck_Captain]

I did a thread on this a few days ago but your right, this little puppy can do alot of damage to infantry,tanks and planes hitting aircraft on a 4+

P4D swarms are goin to be nasty if you ask me,all I need now is 5 of these
little beauty's

http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=10449

[dredlox]

maybe I am still underestimating the we sniper then. He can really irritate me, it's like free points against eagles every time. Same reason I hate PAKS. With Air, he should be even easier to smack too. Headshot is big though, no doubt, it's worth losing him to get a headshot on a croc, or say an is2 or pershing or something.

*shouldnt* three pnzr 4s be just as good though in concert? Those are some big numbers

Good feeback

[dredlox]

On Doc C's team, he needed some cycles to protect the we from humbers and stuff too, thats more overhead(10 points). That's something to consider.

[crash beedo]

Yeah, I go back and forth on the sniper. There are many counters out there, although the best counters that see play are the Screaming Eagles... one Eagle behind the sniper will flush him or destroy him. One of our favorite pre-Contested Skies builds was:

Croc
Sherman x2
Eagle x2
Flamethrower

(Along with the immortal KV-1 / Cossack, Guards T-34, Vet Rhino... probably the best army in the game pre-Contested Skies). Unless a sniper can disrupt the KV-1 or Croc, in either army, it is very hard to disrupt with SS panzergrenadiers alone (and the goal is to kill the panzerfausts first!)

Nowadays the sniper is even more vulnerable, since the allies can plop a Mustang or a Sturmovik right on his head. So our previous version of this army had the sniper and no Wirbelwind. It's definitely one way to go, the Sturmovik will damage a PZ IV 50% of the time and get disrupted back 50% of the time - meaning that three PZ IV's clustered have a reasonable chance of fending off the air attack by layering two disruptions in the same turn, even without the Wirbelwind.

We've got our first big playtest this weekend with all the new stuff, new builds for America, US, UK, a bunch of new german stuff to throw against the wall, we'll see how it goes.

[dredlox]

One of my playtesting buds says "2 eagles on every team" ;-)

Well, I suppose you could drop the wirbelwind for a sniper + cycle, upgrade a pg to a smg toting sturmtrooper

[mlund]

It is a solid, solid unit for its cost.

It will dominate light armor.
It will eliminate infantry.
It will trade off with medium armor.
It will threaten Heavy Armor.

It isn't high on surivivability, but it is all about neutralizing the enemy's armor at a low cost - something Germany has lacked up until now. All their true anti-armor threats cost too much to be willing to trade off and they couldn't harm most infantry. The Elite Panzer IV changes all that.

Its hardest opponents to come out ahead of are the KV1, Guards T34/85, and Churchill Crocodile - the least expensive of the Heavy Armor + Damage Negation tanks.

Now, all that said, this kind of vehicle needs support. The thing is, Germany has that support (unlike say, how Japan completely lacks anything it needs to support its good units outside of the Cho Ni). The three most important supporting units for the Elite Panzer IV, IMO, are:

BMW R75
Panzer III Ausf. F
Wehrmacht Expert Sniper

The Panzer III allows the control of firing lanes with Smoke Screen, making up for the slow speed on the Panzer IV and reducing the amount of fire its weak armor may have to take. In addition is it has enough dice at short range to hurt medium armor and Disrupted Heavy Armor.

The Expert Sniper allows you to stop an enemy from moving, and also reduce his Defense. This is key to dealing with heavy armor threats.

The BMW R75 is extremely aggressive against Vehicles, having a strong chance to scope a hit on light and medium armor, and a fair possibility to damaging Heavy Armor that has been Disrupted. The fact that you can move up to two of them into a single hex from 5 spaces away (6 w/ a road bonus, or 7 if completely on the road) makes them an impressive threat for 5 points. Also, jumping into the enemy's hex during the Movement Phase if you win initiative can help anchor that tank to the hex just like the Expert Sniper does during the Assault Phase.

Moreover, anything that survives the process of trading off units with enemy armor is respectable at threatening at least Defense 4 enemy infantry. This is admittedly a sub-optimal roll for the BMW, but since it is the cheapest support unit in this group I forgive its specialization.

So I think the Elite Panzer IV is the Light Tank with a big punch at low-cost that the Germans have been starved for, and will now use to great effect.

It won't survive as many encounters as, say, a Sherman will, but you don't need it to survive. You need only eliminate the key Armor threats othe other side of the table and let your superior infantry (SS Panzer Grenadiers, SS Haupsturmfuhrer, MG42) secure the objective marker.

I guess it works well with Bltizkrieg tactics and can easily stick to 1939 and 1940 units. That strikes me as especially spiffy.

- Marty Lund