Serious Discussion - what wil be the meta changes now?

[dredlox]

First of all, a disclaimer. If any whiners come on here and cry about power gaming, I will send the Judge to rip you a new one ;-) This is for [b]serious discussion only[\b]. Go whine on another thread.

So, now that heroes are restricted, what do you think? We had seen a huge shift towards all infantry teams, first with Ben's Perfect Army, and then his heroes rampage team. Remember, the heroes are restricted to 1, but that doesnt mean they are gone.... and all infantry was ALREADY good.

I think it's going to stick towards all infantry for awhile.

In that case, what are the counters? Even that 2 vet sherman, 2 105s couldnt consistently take all axis infantry, and it has gotten even better. Brumbar is still alive and kicking, and helps against the Cossack/kv1.

The US mortar is a big counter. I personally like using the Vet Sherman to spot for the mortar just as much as the Mustang. The 105 is still an infantry slaughter-er

You know what I'm thinking though? I talked about this with The judge yesterday.

I think the Japanese infantry are ready to hit. Those fanatics man, they really eat any infantry, esp when backed by the sergeant. The lone HBH can definitely close assault a late game heavy tank

What do you guys think?

by the way, i have to give Doc C some crap. Dude, you yacked about the Vet Tiger and it got nowhere at Gencon. Any comments ;-)?

[polish_horsy]

all infantry makes a lot of sense for two obvious reasons. the game is built around squating on an objective in the middle of the board which infantry do quite nicely. and secondly any army that makes a large portion of your opponents army impotent has gone a long way towards winning.

[Qmark]

An observation I made very early was that Armor and Infantry lived in two different planes of existance. Tanks couldn't seem to reliably kill soldiers, and soldiers were essentially attacking tanks with tootpicks. Even guys with Close Attack guys fared only slightly better, and were still hoping to get lucky against a big ol fat Heavy Tank.
However, when the dorks get lucky and take out a 60-point tank, it's a far bigger blow than that bigass tank getting lucky and killing a 4-point (or so) grunt.

So yeah, I see armor falling out of favor, give or take the tankettes in the 7-20 point range or something.

[Richter von Manthofen]

Japanese infatry is among the best, I agree. But The US Mortar will shred them at range. On the right map OTOH...

4 Sherman and two Humber still rock

But for infantry I would say 2 Mortars and a few helping hands will get you a long way....

[TheJudge]

Well, one thing that is very much common sense, is that in a tournament, you typically have 6-7 rounds to play so if you are playing 13-15 units, the opponent simply cannot kill them all. Lets say for example that my army is:

SS Panzer Grenadiers x10
Brummbar 1
Sniper 1
Panzerfaust 2
SS Hampsterboy 100 points total 15 units

You are playing 2 Shermans, a Mustang, a mortar, and 19 points of infantry for 100 and a total of 9 units.

With perfect shooting, you still cannot kill all of my troops in 7 turns since at least 2 of the turns will have little or no shooting as we each are avoiding the other.

That's what makes the Perfect Army so darn perfect because not only are all of the units hard to kill, they also tend to shoot back!

So, I think things have to be re-evaluated a bit and what I see a trend on is going right back to using the Paratroopers for US since they were always so good to begin with and the US Heavy mortar.

The Germans may very well still use the Vet Tiger which is so hard to deal with for even the SE's. You need a few lucky rolls on the close assaults.

I think the Japanese are the bizomb personally. The Ginsu Warriors have no equal in close combat but they need something, a tank, some good armor that can take out a Sherman and not get destroyed in return. Since tournament rules state that units can be mixed, my next project is a German/Japanese mix that has some armor in it that can hold a bit better than a Ho-Ni. A Hetzer perhaps? Elite PZ's? Not sure yet but the wheels are turning and while it is not historically accurate, I am only considering this for a tournament.

The hard charging, arm chopping, sword swinging Fanatics are just fun to play. What is more fun than yelling Banzai as you storm the objective held by 4 Screaming Eagles and then you get to watch them scream as they all die horribly in a pool of blood, fingers, arms, and legs.

A bunch of armor was always tough for the Japanese since the close assault values are negligent on the Fanatics. Hitting a tank with a sword is pretty crappy Ive heard.

So, add some Panzerfausts! 2-3 ought to do the trick. Also add in the Honor Bound Hero and a few paratroops to snatch the objective and its all over but the cryin right?

We shall see. If anything it will be fun.

[Qmark]

Originally Posted by TheJudge

Not sure yet but the wheels are turning and while it is not historically accurate, I am only considering this for a tournament.

This statement almost comes off as an apology.
The rulebook specifically says you can do this, and the nationality limitations included in the checklist inserts are very definitly under a heading that explicitly says "optional".

If your opponent is too crippled by his own mental blocks to build an optimal army, that's his problem, not yours.

[Surfer_Sam]

I always found the Chi-Ha a pretty reliable tank, just needs alittle luck and it can take out a sherman.

What the Japanese need to take out armor is a good anti-tank gun. Give it a Superior Camoflage sorta SA. Maybe like : This units wins cover rolls automatically at Medium and Longe range when in a forest hex.

Pretty sure the Ha-Go has that though...

[Kaufschtick]

Originally Posted by TheJudge

I think the Japanese are the bizomb personally.

I'm not sure exactly what "bizomb" means, but I'm pretty sure I agree 100%!?!

Originally Posted by TheJudge

The hard charging, arm chopping, sword swinging Fanatics are just fun to play. What is more fun than yelling Banzai as you storm the objective held by 4 Screaming Eagles and then you get to watch them scream as they all die horribly in a pool of blood, fingers, arms, and legs.

LOL! I'm definately in agreement with this! Great post BTW! Nice thread.

[TheJudge]

When in a tournament enviroment, i never apologize for using the best options available to try and win. If mixing JPN and German units gives me the best opportunity to win a tournament, thats what i will do. I don't drive across town at 3 clams a gallon to play pocket pool. I go to tournaments to try to win them, having fun is important also. When I get together with the fellas to play, I try to stick to Brits only or Russians only, stuff like that. That makes it more interesting.

[dredlox]

"What the Japanese need to take out armor is a good anti-tank gun"

You dont think splashing a couple pfs on a team should give the team what they need? Those suckers with banzai charge are pretty nifty. It's just a matter of keeping the pfs alive.

A good at gun would be nice though. they must have one, the Ho ni says it's just a mounted 75 mm at gun. Remember, though, they have ruled you can not banzai an at gun. Pretty unfortunate.

Well, so seems like we think infantry is sort of ruling the roost right now. What is going to swing an all infantry vs all infantry match? We know about the fanatics, they rock.

I still love that Elite Pnzr. It can trade with shermans, but fire accurately with complete impunity for 7 turns at infantry.

Humber: dude, that's another awesome anti mortar piece. Fighters are good too, because then if they send the Mustang out to spot, you send the figher after the Mortar. It becomes a very interesting "game within the game"