German War Machine!

[komichido]

OK in the lull of Christmas time, with not many new things coming from the AH website I wanted to get some opinions on the German War Machine. There have been some great discussions on the topic in some other threads but nothing dedicated to the soldier as an individual as oppossed to the unit and its commanders.

Q. In the regular army were the troops just regular men serving under their countries flag for nationalism and pride? I believe so, It would be like any of our young patriotic men following into the breach of war to unfurl our glorious flag and spread democracy. Other opinions welcome on this point.

Q. In the SS was it the same for these individual soldiers, or were these men hand picked for their extreme ideology and fanatisicm? Even if they were extreme and fanatic did they know of the Jews? Did they know of the other war crimes? This I am not so sure of....was every individual soldier in the SS a Nazi fanatic out to kill every non German or just a specialized soldier, hard charging, dedicated to their role, and well trained.

I do believe their officers were in on much of the war crimes, knew of it anyway but i just dont know about the standard SS soldier. Opinions and facts welcome on this as well.

Lastly, the Secret Police and the Bund were obviously evil organizations, did they help to force soldiers to carry out their duties no matter how horrible thru threat of their families being killed?

Some of you on here are very well informed historians and I am interested in your take in these areas.

Komi

[Muenchausen]

Originally Posted by komichido

Q. In the SS was it the same for these individual soldiers, or were these men hand picked for their extreme ideology and fanatisicm? Even if they were extreme and fanatic did they know of the Jews? Did they know of the other war crimes? This I am not so sure of....was every individual soldier in the SS a Nazi fanatic out to kill every non German or just a specialized soldier, hard charging, dedicated to their role, and well trained.

I do believe their officers were in on much of the war crimes, knew of it anyway but i just dont know about the standard SS soldier. Opinions and facts welcome on this as well.
Komi

I spent 8 years in Germany. My first assignment was in the early 80's at Ramstein AB. One day I was talking to a German employee who was in the Hitler youth brigade. As a young boy of 15 he managed to get captured by the French. Fascinating story. In the course of our conversation I made the mistake of combining being in the SS as the same as being a NAZI. He very unpolitely let me know I had no idea what I was talking about. Although its possable to be an SS soldier (usually an officer) and also a NAZI the two a totally and completely seperate organizations. The SS was the elite fighting forces of Germany during WWII. These were highly trained, battle hardened soldiers who were considered the elite of the German war machine. The SS designation was earned. NAZI's on the other hand was a corrupt political party and that designation was given for joining. Most SS soldiers and officers were not NAZI's.

['panzer' Mayer]

In the book Panzergrenadiers By, Kurt Meyer an SS officer from Poland to France when he was captured by the allies he states that the SS soldier had nothing to do with the Nazi they were fighting for there homes and family's they know the allies were bent on unconditional suurender so they fought on too try to make peace.

[NEVjr]

Originally Posted by 'panzer' Mayer

In the book Panzergrenadiers By, Kurt Meyer an SS officer from Poland to France when he was captured by the allies he states that the SS soldier had nothing to do with the Nazi they were fighting for there homes and family's they know the allies were bent on unconditional suurender so they fought on too try to make peace.

kurt also ordered the murder of many allied prisoners, and after the war became a vocal advocate of bringing back the nazi partys rule in germany.

[simonr1978]

Originally Posted by Muenchausen

I spent 8 years in Germany. My first assignment was in the early 80's at Ramstein AB. One day I was talking to a German employee who was in the Hitler youth brigade. As a young boy of 15 he managed to get captured by the French. Fascinating story. In the course of our conversation I made the mistake of combining being in the SS as the same as being a NAZI. He very unpolitely let me know I had no idea what I was talking about. Although its possable to be an SS soldier (usually an officer) and also a NAZI the two a totally and completely seperate organizations. The SS was the elite fighting forces of Germany during WWII. These were highly trained, battle hardened soldiers who were considered the elite of the German war machine. The SS designation was earned. NAZI's on the other hand was a corrupt political party and that designation was given for joining. Most SS soldiers and officers were not NAZI's.

This is more or less contrary to everything I've ever been taught.

The SS was the fighting arm of the Nazi party. The Waffen-SS started off as a bodyguard formation for Hitler himself (This grew into SS-Leibstandart Adolf Hitler, often abbreviated to SS-LAH), initially called the SS Verfugungstruppe (SS-VT), these were reorganised to the Waffen SS after the campaign in the west.

The SS as a whole included the Gestapo, the concentration camps guards, they ran the extermination camps and included the Ensatzgruppen who were responsible for the elimination of Jews, Commissars and amongst others the Polish intelligensia.

I haven't read that membership of the Nazi party was a formal requirement for joining the SS, but initially at any rate the SS was recruited along strict racial lines, including appearance and candidates had to prove their racial heritage up to 200 years back for officers. (As the military situation became more desparate recruitment was gradually opened to the stage where pretty much anyone could join).

There was in the SS-Freikorps Scandinavians, Finns, Danes, Dutch, French, Belgians, Ukrainians and even at one point an attempt to form a British unit (Which only attracted less than 20 recruits) from British POWs.

The SS was never a part of the Wehrmacht or Reichswehr, they remained a part of the Nazi organisation throughout, and distinctly separate.

[Oberst Hermann]

Originally Posted by komichido

Q. In the regular army were the troops just regular men serving under their countries flag for nationalism and pride? I believe so, It would be like any of our young patriotic men following into the breach of war to unfurl our glorious flag and spread democracy. Other opinions welcome on this point.

A. In the Heer (that is the regular army) Most of the soldiers and officers were either carreer soldiers or regular citizens who joined up because their country was at war... much like the US armed forces in WW II. They usually joined up to defend their homeland and their families from the other nations they fought against. Later in the war ('44 onward) there was some forced conscription (I am somewhat lacking in accurate information about this) and many regiments/divisions (the Volksgrenadier) were formed out of largely untrained civilians who were equipped with what ever was available and commanded by a handful of veteran officers and NCOs. (Please note this is not a comment on Heer involvement in any atrocities/war crimes/etc. that occured [or may have occured] in World War II)

Originally Posted by komichido

Q. In the SS was it the same for these individual soldiers, or were these men hand picked for their extreme ideology and fanatisicm? Even if they were extreme and fanatic did they know of the Jews? Did they know of the other war crimes? This I am not so sure of....was every individual soldier in the SS a Nazi fanatic out to kill every non German or just a specialized soldier, hard charging, dedicated to their role, and well trained.

I do believe their officers were in on much of the war crimes, knew of it anyway but i just dont know about the standard SS soldier. Opinions and facts welcome on this as well.

A. Many SS personel came from the Hitler Youth or similar groups. However by and large their primary purpose was to be an elite paramilitary unit for the Nazi Party. They were known for being fanatical and loyal, but, their primary loyalty was not always to their country's political leaders . Some SS units (SS-LAH [SS-Lieberstandart Adolf Hitler, the name of an SS division] for example) more strongly identified themselves with the Nazi party than others. The SS's participation in the Holocaust and/or other atrocities/War Crimes is something I do not have good documentation on. (Again see the disclaimer at the end of the above response)

[simonr1978]

It's not surprising that many members of all Germany's armed forces had prior experience either in the Hitler Jugend (Boys) or Bund Deutscher Madchen (Girls) since it became compulsory for children to attend one of the Nazi youth organisations once the Nazis came to power in 1933.

[MEX10MM]

I am sure the SS was a para-military organization of the nazi party. During the war they became a full army of it´s own, Himmler was the commander in chief of this force, second only to Hitler himself.
Think of the SS as an army made up from members of the same political party.
(some may be fanatics other not so but they all share the same ideology)

[MEX10MM]

The german army was like all other armies in the world made up of "citizens" some conscripted other volunteers. The german officers were in must of the cases "professional" soldiers. Not all of them (enlisted men and officers) were nazis but most of them believed they were doing the "right thing".

[Kriegshund]

Yah, I am not certain how you could put much distance between the SS and the Nazi party being as it was indeed the paramilitary arm of that party. Latter in the war I am sure due to lack of manpower and desperation, the SS "lowered it's standards" for recruits as every German military orginization was scrambling for recruits by signing up anyone that could fire a rifle.

However, I guess it could be said that a random German citizen who upon feeling the need to protect his country when the walls were coming down may have viewed the SS as "elite". Therefore not really buying into the Nazi policy may have viewed the SS as the best place to throw down arms and kick in. And with the recruiting standards lessened would not have found too much resistance getting in....